BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Hellish tropes

sherlocked · January 4, 2017 11:27 pm

Has anyone else caught the strange and chilling allusions to the devil in connection with the baby? There's not just this final chilling GoToHellSherlock from Mary, which is unconnected to the baby. There's this odd conversation about little baby Rosie having (or rather not having) a 666 on her forehead. John then talks about the movies "The Omen" and "The Exorcist", and that the baby cannot very well be the devil and the antichrist at the same time. Then there is the odd coincidence that Mary's real first name is (so she claims) Rosamund Mary, which is awfully similar to Rosemary. And in the movie "Rosemary's Baby" a young woman called Rosemary has a baby which has been secretly fathered by the devil himself. And it looks rather horrible if I may say so - although it sounds like an ordinary baby which just needs his mother. That's why I thought at first that Mary is making a private joke about her and the baby. But at this point in time John didn't even know Mary's full real name.
So, what is all this about? Are the makers just trying to freak us out a bit or could there be a deeper layer to all these devillish and hellish allusions?

ewige · January 5, 2017 12:04 am

I just think Mary and John never expected to be so tired out by a baby.

sherlocked · January 5, 2017 12:11 am

Ewige, that's what I first thought, too. But it's sure layered very thickly, and the thought connection to Rosemary's baby is a bit unsettling. I'm not reading anything specific into this right now. Was just asking if someone else noticed.

Mothonthemantel · January 5, 2017 12:18 am

Apologies if anyone is offended!

I immediately thought the devil and the antichrist comments really funny. Often Jesus and Sherlock comparisons are made in the show and, well , Jesus did manage to be all three!
Father (devil) son ( antichrist ) and holy ghost / spirit ( whatever that is good/evil ).

Last edited by Mothonthemantel (January 5, 2017 12:19 am)

sherlocked · January 5, 2017 12:22 am

Mothonthemantel, I'm certainly not offended. And I tend to think of it right now as more of a private joke of the makers - if there wasn't that GoToHellSherlock in the end. We will see...

tonnaree · January 5, 2017 1:06 am

I have previously referred to my own children as "Satan's spawn."

Mothonthemantel · January 5, 2017 1:22 am

thankyou and Tonaree.
I think maybe that scene is important - we were shown it twice.

Mothonthemantel · January 5, 2017 1:32 am

References to Moriarty being in hell and Sherlocks offer to shake hands in hell and maybe Magnussen being the devil ( though that might be Mycroft as he is Sherlocks arch enemy)
So yes very sinister Mary mentions hell and the baby is referenced that way.
I have considered maybe Mary knows and is hinting about Moriarty , maybe he is in Hell.
Helll being a place , but also a go !!!! yourself with Moriarty.
Possible the Sherlock -Moriarty showdown could literally and metaphorically be in Hell.

Seems obvious to say Sherlock may win because he has two ( is three) brothers instead of one ( is two).

Last edited by Mothonthemantel (January 5, 2017 1:59 am)

Schmiezi · January 5, 2017 8:23 am

I call my son "spawn of hell" often enough and love him to pieces, so I never wondered about the exchange. But as nothing is accidental in this show, there might be a deeper layer to it.

sherlocked · January 5, 2017 8:36 am

Mothonthemantel wrote:
References to Moriarty being in hell and Sherlocks offer to shake hands in hell and maybe Magnussen being the devil ( though that might be Mycroft as he is Sherlocks arch enemy)
So yes very sinister Mary mentions hell and the baby is referenced that way.
I have considered maybe Mary knows and is hinting about Moriarty , maybe he is in Hell.
Helll being a place , but also a go !!!! yourself with Moriarty.
Possible the Sherlock -Moriarty showdown could literally and metaphorically be in Hell.

Seems obvious to say Sherlock may win because he has two ( is three) brothers instead of one ( is two).

Yes, mothonthemantel, thanks for reminding us. The hell and devil trope isn't just restricted to Baby Watson and TST. And I noticed that the net community has caught the "Rosemary's Baby" reverence as well by now. As to Sherlock's alleged third brother: we can't know if he will be on the side of the angels - if he even will show up. Sherrinford is certainly a teaser. But if he is really played by Loki I think he might be more on the side of the devil.

Last edited by sherlocked (January 5, 2017 8:45 am)

Liberty · January 5, 2017 9:17 am

I find it hard to think of little Rosie as being evil. I have wondered why they chose the name Rosamund for Mary ("rose of the world", as Molly says), but it's not quite the same as Rosemary - I think if they'd particularly intended that, it might have been cleverer to just call her and the baby "Rose". Then Mary would be Rose Mary. There's also no allusions to Rosie's conception that suggest anything untoward!

The conversation does sound an awful way to talk about a baby, but probably believable as a light-hearted way for parents to deal with sleepless nights!

sherlocked · January 5, 2017 9:28 am

I don't believe at all that there's something evil about little Rosie herself! But I find the conversation a little unsettling - especially in connection with the meta allusion to "Rosemary's Baby". But I do believe that there might be a hidden clue there. Mothonthemantel pointed out the many other hints at hell and the devil.
But while some factions of the Sherlock scene already speculate that Rosie might really be Moriarty's child, I don't see any indications for that at all.
For all we know Mary (who of course knows that her real name is Rosamund Mary) might teasingly refer to her daughter as Rosemary's baby. That might've triggered this late night conversation. It could be a private joke. I just wonder (again) about the time line. At this point John is not supposed to know that Mary's real name is Rosamund Mary. But he treats this "devillish" talk as if they have frequently joked about it.

Last edited by sherlocked (January 5, 2017 9:31 am)

Mothonthemantel · January 5, 2017 10:18 am

lol yes perfectly normal baby. First time I saw Rose Mary's baby reference. That babys birth was a sort of conspiracy with devil worshipers.I remember in HLV Sherlock said he done a deal with the devil too. I find ithe theme quite amusing and intriguing .
I wrote somewhere after hlv that Sherlocks brother was probablythe family idiot that worked in the church so...exorcist?

Last edited by Mothonthemantel (January 5, 2017 10:19 am)

sherlocked · January 5, 2017 10:33 am

Mothonthemantel, I find it intriguing, too. Especially since all the talk about hell might well tie back somehow to Sherlock's arcane conversation with Jim Moriarty on the rooftop of St. Barths, when Sherlock says: "If you want to shake hands in hell I shall not disappoint you". This has never been fully explained, and most people settled on a vaguely metaphorical explanation.
I just thought it would be extremely funny if Jim did indeed fake his death and went to Hell, Norway, in order to hide. And Sherlock promisses to visit him there eventually. But he failed to do so. That's why Mary prompts him to make good on his promise and tells him: "Go to Hell, Sherlock ... Jim Moriarty is waiting for you!" And they all meet in beautiful Hell in Norway and shake hands
Sorry, just kidding. But the many layers and confusing time lines are really getting to me.

Mothonthemantel · January 5, 2017 10:37 am

Yes . It seems Mary and Moriarty had similar themed good byes.

Liberty · January 5, 2017 10:59 am

My feeling about the rooftop conversation was that Sherlock was manipulating Moriarty into killing himself. But I know it's not a view everyone shares!

Mothonthemantel · January 5, 2017 11:06 am

I agree Lib. It was Johns idea - he said about the hanging dummy - did you talk him to death.

sherlocked · January 5, 2017 11:13 am

I don't share this interpretation and have a hunch that Sherlock was alluding to something more specific - although probably not Hell in Norway
. But as long as we have nothing else to go on I can't come up with a better alternative explanation.

Mothonthemantel · January 5, 2017 11:27 am

I think maybe Sherlock won the game and Moriarty had the penalty of living in Hell, Norway?
Then Sherlock needed to use him for his get out of Hell free card after killing Magnussen.
So now he can come back.

Last edited by Mothonthemantel (January 5, 2017 11:27 am)

sherlocked · January 5, 2017 11:34 am

Mothonthemantel, Hell in Norway is probably a beautiful place. I would love to live in Norway - and have a boat, even one which has the strange name Speckled Band. Maybe it belongs to Jim, who hides behind the identity of a simple fisherman