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January 4, 2017 9:34 pm  #101


Re: TST - what is real in this episode?

Doubt it.
He told John she was wrong about him!


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January 4, 2017 9:36 pm  #102


Re: TST - what is real in this episode?

But Mycroft knew how to get information from her already then.
And she wasn't wrong about John's limp ;)


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"The posh boy loves the dominatrix." Context matters.
 

January 4, 2017 9:42 pm  #103


Re: TST - what is real in this episode?

sherlocked wrote:

Mothonthemantel, do I unterstand you correctly: you think that the whole episode might be Sherlock's narrative to Ella, but his words morph into the tv movie we watch?
If so, that's a very clever thought. It would account for a lot of oddities. It would be an unreliable-narrator case par excellence.
But if this is true we can't be completely sure of anything which happens before the last scene with Ella. Sherlock might distort things, he might not want that Ella learns certain things, he might want to look better in certain situations, he might want to protect people... and so on. The big question is of course: why did he seek out Ella in the first place?
And is it really possible to interpret the whole episode in this way? I was under the impression that he doesn't really tell Ella anything. That's why she remarks she can only help him if he opens up. Maybe, we are just privy to Sherlock's thoughts?

 

I think the story about Mary was shown to us as flashbacks as Sherlock told it to Ella.
He would have had to tell her a censored version of course. The gist being Mary ran away and somehow ended up dead. Sherlock blames himself and John is overcome with grief.
Thats all Ella needs to know to help John.

Thus as with Canon  ( and also the drjohnwatsonsblog ) we have the unreliable narrator withholding the incriminating and interesting features and the last line is a sort of this is the story I am telling you but One day the true story may be told.


"Man may not be degraded  to being a machine by being denied to be a ghost in the machine."
It's just transport. The virus in the hard drive . However impossible .Must be the truth.
 

January 4, 2017 9:49 pm  #104


Re: TST - what is real in this episode?

Ok, mothonthemantel  that could work. But in this case the version of how Mary died might be as edited as the CAM shooting footage ;)

 

January 4, 2017 9:52 pm  #105


Re: TST - what is real in this episode?

LOL yes. We don't know for sure who shot Ajay and we don't know for sure who shot Mary.

John's the secretary though, between the three isn't he. 


"Man may not be degraded  to being a machine by being denied to be a ghost in the machine."
It's just transport. The virus in the hard drive . However impossible .Must be the truth.
 

January 4, 2017 9:53 pm  #106


Re: TST - what is real in this episode?

Huh?


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January 4, 2017 10:06 pm  #107


Re: TST - what is real in this episode?

It must have been the jellyfish for sure. Unfortunately you can't arrest them

 

January 4, 2017 11:11 pm  #108


Re: TST - what is real in this episode?

Are there different versions of EMP floating around?  I thought EMP said everything since Sherlock got shot was in his mind palace.  So how can the scene with Ella be real and him "doctoring" what happened?

Also, the reason I don't like EMP as a theory is that it seems like it would undo things unnecessarily.  You'd have to explain how everything after a certain point was fake, then go back and retell what actually did happen.  And if multiple episodes are fake, there doesn't seem to be enough time to tell the "true" version and manage to advance the plot any.  Besides, none of the EMP theories go back far enough to erase my least favorite part of the show, which is the inclusion of a baby.

But I will say, if EMP is not true, the showrunners should be a bit embarrassed by all of the inconsistencies that have been pointed out using this theory (and the fact that people came up with an intricate theory to make sense of their mistakes).

Last edited by Three Garridebs (January 4, 2017 11:13 pm)

 

January 4, 2017 11:21 pm  #109


Re: TST - what is real in this episode?

Wow, yes, this is a very interesting idea.

Another thing, that could mean something: We did not even once see Sherlock go into his typical mindpalace this episode, did we? (Or have I forgotton, I only watched it one time...)
Mindpalace was VERY present in the last few episodes. There are the "normal" things like in series 2, the newer and more creative things in series 3, and of course TAB. MP was getting more and more of a thing and suddenly nothing now? Sherlock is using his deduction skills as usual (like in the "Charly" case) or we see flashbacks, but nothing of the MP versions that we know.
Or maybe I've just forgotten a typical MP scene, as I said, I did only one viewing...

Do the makers simply had enough of MP/they didn't simply see an oportunity in this episode?
Or could there be another reason? For example it is like you suggested, he is only telling a distorted story (to Ella)?


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Breathing is boring!

English isn't my first language, feel free to correct me via PM!
 

January 4, 2017 11:51 pm  #110


Re: TST - what is real in this episode?

As the series has progressed it has become more and more difficult to discern when we are in the MP.
We have to think and observe and come to our own deduction.
Questioning reality seems to be a theme on this show  , sort of a grand metaphor for Sherlock himself . It's how he stays alive.
It all seems quite relevant what is reality anyway and I saw it in the papers so it must be true. and proof I don't need proof I just have to print it.


"Man may not be degraded  to being a machine by being denied to be a ghost in the machine."
It's just transport. The virus in the hard drive . However impossible .Must be the truth.
 

January 5, 2017 6:20 am  #111


Re: TST - what is real in this episode?

Rache wrote:

Wow, yes, this is a very interesting idea.

Another thing, that could mean something: We did not even once see Sherlock go into his typical mindpalace this episode, did we? (Or have I forgotton, I only watched it one time...)
Mindpalace was VERY present in the last few episodes. There are the "normal" things like in series 2, the newer and more creative things in series 3, and of course TAB. MP was getting more and more of a thing and suddenly nothing now? Sherlock is using his deduction skills as usual (like in the "Charly" case) or we see flashbacks, but nothing of the MP versions that we know.
Or maybe I've just forgotten a typical MP scene, as I said, I did only one viewing...

Do the makers simply had enough of MP/they didn't simply see an oportunity in this episode?
Or could there be another reason? For example it is like you suggested, he is only telling a distorted story (to Ella)?

We get to see Sherlock’s MP. It's just that our attention is no longer guide there, it just happens.

The first example that comes to my mind is when Sherlock realizes that there is something miSwing on the Thatcher table. He cadually looks at the table and we see the other people in the room. Then he looks at it withe more cobcentration and suddenly he is alone in the room, the chair are all empty. Then his attention snaps back to the conversation and everybody is back at their chairs.

I need to watch the show again to find more examples.


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I still believe that love conquers all!

     

"Quick, man, if you love me."
 

January 5, 2017 6:33 am  #112


Re: TST - what is real in this episode?

For me TAB was all MP.
For this episode, I don't see it so much...unless we go with the theory of Sherlock retelling the story to Ella.
It has a dream like quality, but so far to me, that has just been to get across the shark theme.


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January 5, 2017 7:53 am  #113


Re: TST - what is real in this episode?

We do not always see Sherlock going into his MP. The first instance was the multi-laptop scene in TSoT. We have a whole thread for this in here and it took weeks or months until some people realised it only happened in Sherlock's head. 

I think there is a progression. The viewers are prepared that there is something like an MP. In ASiB we get a mixture of drug effects and MP with the hiker deduction. In THoB Sherlock announces "I have to go to my mind palace" and we see him sorting facts. In TSoT there is no announcement anymore, we are just confronted with what happens inside his head: the laptops scene, the debating hall scenes. 

His MP is not always the same: sometimes it is just a sort of database in which he is sifting knowledge (THoB, TEH). Then again he enacts full scenarios in order to save his life or cope with experiences or play through what might have happened or could happen in future (ASiB, TSoT, HLV, TAB). 


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
     Thread Starter
 

January 5, 2017 4:57 pm  #114


Re: TST - what is real in this episode?

Interesting ponderings on MP, but we don't yet know which (if any )of these is being used in this episode.


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January 5, 2017 7:04 pm  #115


Re: TST - what is real in this episode?

Exactly. But we did not know in TSoT either and I suppose some viewers do not know until this day that he did not have ten laptops in his room. 


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
     Thread Starter
 

January 5, 2017 7:16 pm  #116


Re: TST - what is real in this episode?

As Mrs H might say:  nothing would surprise me with Sherlock!


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January 5, 2017 7:50 pm  #117


Re: TST - what is real in this episode?

SusiGo wrote:

Exactly. But we did not know in TSoT either and I suppose some viewers do not know until this day that he did not have ten laptops in his room. 

Outing myself here as a fan who's nevertheless too lazy/incapable/stupid to get that.


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"The posh boy loves the dominatrix." Context matters.
 

January 5, 2017 7:52 pm  #118


Re: TST - what is real in this episode?

I wouldn't be too hard on yourself, ewige.
We all watch shows for different reasons, we all pick up on and focus on different things and we all have different interests.


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January 5, 2017 8:01 pm  #119


Re: TST - what is real in this episode?

Oh, by the way, do you noticed that John calls Mrs Hudson "Mrs H"?

 

January 5, 2017 8:06 pm  #120


Re: TST - what is real in this episode?

Yes it was mentioned elsewhere.
I think it's great, especially as many of us do the same.


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