BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Mary's death and final message

Liberty · January 4, 2017 10:27 am

I wouldn't mind a bit of Star Trek!

Talking of other fiction, I've just realised what Mary's message reminds me of - the bit at the end of Brighton Rock, the recording of Pinkie's voice.

Liberty · January 4, 2017 10:32 am

Vhanja wrote:
Liberty wrote:
I'm also puzzled about how he got the DVD at the right time (did she leave it with somebody, with instructions to post if she died? Who? Janine?).
Didn't Mrs. Hudson say that it came in her mail by a mistake? And she was gone on holiday by the time of the shooting (Mary mentions it when John asks if Mrs. Hudson can babysit). So Sherlock wouldn't be able to receive it until after Mrs. Hudson returned from her holiday, ie after the aquarium event.

Yes, but it still had to be got to the house in a manner that Sherlock wouldn't see it until after Mary's death. So either Mary posted it/dropped it off (on the way to the aquarium? Knowing she would die there?) beforehand, or she arranged for somebody else to do it in the event of her death. That's what puzzling me - was she certain that she was going to die, and posted it/dropped it off? Either Mary had to know she was going to die imminently, or somebody else had to be involved and know to get it to Sherlock after her death. However, maybe it's just not relevant how it got there and who got it there, and I'm worrying about an insignificant detail!.

Vhanja · January 4, 2017 11:04 am

Guys! Guys, guys... there are theories on Tumblr that John was the assassin who shot Mary. That "E" was working for Mycroft, that it was a plan between John and him. One detail mentioned is that there is a close-up of when Mary actually gets shot, and it looks like the wound in the chest is an exit wound, not the entry.

Then again, why would John then be angry at Sherlock? That would then be an act, and for what reason? Also, we know that John is a terrible liar. So even though it's an interesting theory, I am not sure if I believe it.

Edit: Also, considering that the bullet hit Mary when she was directly in front of Sherlock, that would have made it impossible to shoot her from behind without hitting him. So that makes it even less likely.

Last edited by Vhanja (January 4, 2017 11:05 am)

SusiGo · January 4, 2017 11:11 am

I am not sure if not the whole scene at the aquarium is John's alibi, a manipulation like the Magnussen murder we see at the beginning. There are photos, maybe from the Czech trailer, showing a piece of paper with the words "John's alibi" written on them. Why would he need an alibi? Surely not for cheating on his wife.

What also strikes me is the very first scene, Sherlock at the aquarium, telling the Samarra story. Why is he there? What is the purpose of showing him at the aquarium? And what a coincidence that this should be the place where Mrs Norbury likes to watch fish and meet agents. There is something strange about this.

besleybean · January 4, 2017 11:20 am

Something fishy even, sorry...couldn't resist, you can slap me with a wet fish!

ewige · January 4, 2017 11:34 am

SusiGo wrote:
There are photos, maybe from the Czech trailer, showing a piece of paper with the words "John's alibi" written on them. Why would he need an alibi? Surely not for cheating on his wife.

Seriously?
I only remember "ed to kill"! Can you please find the screenshots? *hundreds new theories!*

Liberty · January 4, 2017 12:05 pm

I assumed that the first scene with Sherlock at the aquarium was at the end ... then we go back to see what led him there. So it's mostly flashback. Yet another reason to watch again - do you mean you think he goes to the aquarium at the beginning?

I don't think John killed Mary - that doesn't make sense.

Last edited by Liberty (January 4, 2017 12:07 pm)

SusiGo · January 4, 2017 12:11 pm

Here is an interesting analysis of the different gunshot wounds in the show:

http://byebyefrost.tumblr.com/post/155387218746/jamesmoriartv-shinka-comparison-for-all-the

And here is the pic for ewige:

ewige · January 4, 2017 12:30 pm

Wow, very exciting, thank you for finding it! Do you know where it's from? Doesnt look like a trailer.

besleybean · January 4, 2017 12:32 pm

I don't believe this at all.
Why would John shoot the love of his life and pretend to grieve over it?
This to me is a new low of trying to ram an artificial wedge between John and Mary.
Why would we be shown some random woman shooting her, albeit inadvertently?
Having said that...when do we get to see Sherlock and John speaking at the aquarium..isn't that in one of the trailers?
However, yes why would John need an alibi?

Last edited by besleybean (January 4, 2017 12:32 pm)

sherlocked · January 4, 2017 12:35 pm

Susi, I don't believe that John killed Mary. That seems too fantastic. He might've needed an alibi for something else - like undercover work. But who knows? We have seen doctored images at the beginning of the show, which apparently showed that Sherlock didn't kill CAM. There is indeed something massively unrealistic and surreal about Mary getting hit. It's so over the top unrealistic! And I cannot make sense of Sherlock being at the aquarium in the beginning. Also, I had the impression that he was winding up Vivian Norbury deliberately for some reason. So, we might indeed not have seen what really happened. But that doesn't necessarily mean that John must have killed Mary.

Last edited by sherlocked (January 4, 2017 12:37 pm)

Vhanja · January 4, 2017 12:40 pm

I do agree, John shooting Mary does seem a bit far-fetched. It would mean that the whole anger at Sherlock would've been a lie/cover-up for something, and that seems too... much? for this type of show. That John would be the mastermind guy tricking Sherlock, that's not how this show goes (usually it's John who is always left in the dark).

besleybean · January 4, 2017 12:45 pm

It could of course mean that Sherlock was in on a Mycroft plot to assassinate Mary..and would certainly explain a lasting rift between the boys.
But I believe we really are entering the realms of more unrealistic fantasy now.

sherlocked · January 4, 2017 12:50 pm

Well, I haven't the foggiest idea where all this is going. Let me just say this: Susi was righg to start a thread about what's real in the latest episode. Maybe, the doctored footage of CAM's death has a larger significance. It tells us that what we see onscreen doesn't need to be what really happened. And come to think of it, Mary getting hit by the bullet looked massively doctored

Last edited by sherlocked (January 4, 2017 12:51 pm)

sherlocked · January 4, 2017 1:00 pm

Of course this whole line of thought opens up a whole new can of worms: if Mary didn't really die sacrificing herself for Sherlock - which seemed to redeem her fully - what is she? Good or bad? Do we really know most things about her past? Is Vivian Norbury really the traitor?
I haven't the foggiest idea right now. It might well all be a figment of our overimaginative fantasy. But the doctored footage of CAM's death and the many apparent continuity errors (if that's what it really is) give me pause.

besleybean · January 4, 2017 1:10 pm

I am fairly certain on both those points...I'm really just waiting to see what hell Sherlock has to face to save John and if he manages it.

Preceja · January 4, 2017 9:26 pm

I believe that the aquarium at the beginning is in fact after Mary's death. Then the Samara part has real meaning to Sherlock - he brought Mary back to London , thought that she would be safer there but she died. Why would be he otherwise telling suddenly a story that he hated.

ewige · January 4, 2017 9:30 pm

Preceja wrote:
I believe that the aquarium at the beginning is in fact after Mary's death. Then the Samara part has real meaning to Sherlock - he brought Mary back to London , thought that she would be safer there but she died. Why would be he otherwise telling suddenly a story that he hated.

Ooh, I think this interpretation a lot, I think it totally makes sense! It also explains why Sherlock remembers the story in the aquarium - because Mrs. Norbury has just reminded him of it!

Liberty · January 4, 2017 10:00 pm

I just assumed that the aquarium part at the beginning takes place at the same time as the aquarium part at the end. Is there any reason to think it doesn't?

ewige · January 4, 2017 10:03 pm

Liberty wrote:
I just assumed that the aquarium part at the beginning takes place at the same time as the aquarium part at the end. Is there any reason to think it doesn't?

I think it's perfectly reasonable, I just didn't piece it together on my own.