BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » TST

Schmiezi · January 3, 2017 6:37 pm

tonnaree wrote:
As far as TST is concerned I do think most of what we are seeing is "real." But that we are seeing it from the point of an unreliable narrator. I lean toward the idea that most of what we see in the episode is Sherlock relating the events to Ella in therapy. This makes the most sense to me.

I like that idea. Still, I wonder about John mentioning changing nappies on his blog before the baby was born. That is weird!

Liberty · January 3, 2017 7:07 pm

SolarSystem wrote:
Which door are you referring to, Susi?

The stairs in the living room weren't there before, either. In the behind the scenes-snippet Arwel said that they added the stairs to make the house feel more complete.
As for the bed: I'm not a mother so I don't know if this a logical thought, but Mary's side of the bed in TST is a bit closer to the door that leads to the Rosie's room. Even if it's only a difference of two or three steps, maybe they changed sides for practical reasons? (That's assuming of course that Mary would get up more often for the baby than John... which I'm not convinced of, I'll freely admit it.)

Mary would be more likely to get up if she was breastfeeding. And usually the baby is in the parents' room to start with, so maybe had been sleeping on that side of the bed.

besleybean · January 3, 2017 7:09 pm

Don't even start me on the breast feeding thing...but poor Rosie would soon be deprived of that anyway.
I think the stairs were there before.

Liberty · January 3, 2017 7:17 pm

Lola Red wrote:
I hope by far most of what we see is real. TAB was fun and kind of made sense in the way it connected Victorian times to the present. But if everything is a dream/MP etc. it would undo the character development we see and mean that actually nothing is at stake. There already is a problem in the story that even death feels only semi-permanent, thanks to all fake deaths/implied fake deaths. I personally prefer the dead to stay dead and MP to be used sparingly. The stakes are higher this way.

I feel the same. For my peace of mind, I'm going to believe that TST is all (or almost all) real. It kind of makes sense, and it fits with what we saw in HLV and TAB.

JP · January 3, 2017 8:13 pm

tonnaree wrote:
As far as TST is concerned I do think most of what we are seeing is "real." But that we are seeing it from the point of an unreliable narrator. I lean toward the idea that most of what we see in the episode is Sherlock relating the events to Ella in therapy. This makes the most sense to me.

This could be something.
I remember the very strange feeling of… strangeness watching it for the 1. time. The whole perspective/light/space seemed so different to me, that I constanly asked myself it it's all real. It didn't feel so.
I'm wondering if it's due to new director? Cinematographer? (have to check) Light department? (ditto)

We have slight changes in the set. The famous Blue Skull was replaced by something similar and made by Arwel by mingling Billy the Skull photo with lines of ACD text and even his portrait - so it's all intentional.

I first noticed the new blue skull in setlock pics, on the street where they were using the huge screens with 221b walls printed on them. Because it looked very much like shooting MP scenes, I assumed the pic is just a representation of the real one in Sherlock's (maybe drugged) head. I really don't know what to think. Intend to pester Arwel about it after S4 is over. Or maybe even personally - if there is another Con in London. :-)

There is also a third skull in a jar at the window at 221B
WTF?

besleybean · January 3, 2017 8:15 pm

Every where is death...

JP · January 3, 2017 8:17 pm

Yes, but it was there from the beginning, actually.
What bugs me too: why the hell John started to call Mrs Hudson "Mrs H"? Sounds like Mrs Age. Urgs.

besleybean · January 3, 2017 8:19 pm

I actually think that's rather funny, cos a lot of us fans do that.
I honestly hadn't even noticed John doing it....you realise when I re-watch tomorrow, that will now drive me mad!

jenosborn · January 3, 2017 8:52 pm

tonnaree wrote:
As far as TST is concerned I do think most of what we are seeing is "real." But that we are seeing it from the point of an unreliable narrator. I lean toward the idea that most of what we see in the episode is Sherlock relating the events to Ella in therapy. This makes the most sense to me.

Exactly. We may see a change in point-of-view once we get our canonical narrator back (John).

besleybean · January 3, 2017 8:54 pm

That's if we do get him back, of course.

Oakwood375 · January 3, 2017 11:06 pm

There are bound to be some changes in between series and I think that's why people have found this so "off", not because it's possibly MP. It has been 3 years in our world...

besleybean · January 3, 2017 11:08 pm

Yes, I mentioned this elsewhere...each new series felt different to me.
With this one:
- it's been longer
- it might be the last
- I dunno if even the Freeman split affected it a bit, or certainly my perception of it.

JP · January 3, 2017 11:13 pm

I often wish they would wait with announcing the split. It's like another elephant in the room.

But it's RL, not a show and they do as they think is good for them.

Liberty · January 3, 2017 11:13 pm

Yes, they all feel different to me too. And TAB feels different again. I think they've "moved on" a bit.

besleybean · January 3, 2017 11:16 pm

I definitely think the possible 'endgame' scenario is the biggest cloud over this whole series.
I mean I think we are in for more brilliant TV, but it all seems so desperate...

Liberty · January 3, 2017 11:45 pm

I think next episode will be the more "unreal" one.

Kiwi · January 4, 2017 12:30 am

tonnaree wrote:
As far as TST is concerned I do think most of what we are seeing is "real." But that we are seeing it from the point of an unreliable narrator. I lean toward the idea that most of what we see in the episode is Sherlock relating the events to Ella in therapy. This makes the most sense to me.

Interesting theory, would make sense to me, too. I just wonder how the parts with John in the bus fit into that, as Sherlock wasn't there and I doubt that John would tell him in detail what happened there. Hm.

Schmiezi · January 4, 2017 6:41 am

Kiwi wrote:
tonnaree wrote:
As far as TST is concerned I do think most of what we are seeing is "real." But that we are seeing it from the point of an unreliable narrator. I lean toward the idea that most of what we see in the episode is Sherlock relating the events to Ella in therapy. This makes the most sense to me.
Interesting theory, would make sense to me, too. I just wonder how the parts with John in the bus fit into that, as Sherlock wasn't there and I doubt that John would tell him in detail what happened there. Hm.

There us an interesting theory over at the "John's cheating" thread. We get to see the bus scene twice, but with little changes. That could be Sherlock imagining it in different ways because he does not know for sure.

SusiGo · January 4, 2017 8:09 am

JP wrote:
I often wish they would wait with announcing the split. It's like another elephant in the room.

But it's RL, not a show and they do as they think is good for them.

To be fair, they waited for eight or nine months which must have been difficult, keeping rumour and gossip down and all that. And I remember discussions from three years ago about the lack of chemistry between them although they were such a nice couple in RL. Therefore to me their break-up does not make any difference in perceiving the show.

And, yes, the bus stop scenes discussion is quite interesting.

sherlocked · January 4, 2017 10:26 am

Susi, I think you're on to something with your questioning of reality in TST. The whole episode is confusing to the max. The problem is that it is always hard to distinguish between simple continuity errors, deliberate stylistic choices which are not always compatible with physics and real clues. In this episode the apparent continuity errors seem to add up, though, to staggering proportions. Were they just that sloppy or are they trying to get the audience to question what they see?
The two versions of the bus scenes seem to indicate that there a conflicting versions of reality out there. That hints at an unreliable narrator who is not omniscient or who tries out different versions in his mind. John could for example reflect in his mind how a casual observer would interpret the interaction between him and the mystery woman.