BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » First impressons and discussions

Liberty · January 2, 2017 9:38 am

I remember that from setlock!

Did anyone catch the song the child (Sherlock?) was singing in Sherlock's pirate/redbeard flashback?

Last edited by Liberty (January 2, 2017 9:39 am)

besleybean · January 2, 2017 9:53 am

Morning!
Anybody sleep?
Anybody like me, up all night with Sherlock roaming around the brain?!
Anyhow...in the new light of day:
I think I forgot to mention dogs last night. Loved seeing Redbeard again and meeting Toby. Sherlock likes dogs, hey? Though I do have some thoughts on Redbeard...but it was nice to see young, pirate Sherlock.
The other thing, do we think Mary set up the 'Miss You' thing then?
Right, back into the breach...picking up from where I left off last night.
Well possibly I'm thick.
But I don't see why I was supposed to suspect the secretary. Such a minor character. I just knew it wasn't Mary. I actually thought the ambassador may be a double agent.
Yes, on the Mary taking over thing.
Okay things have changed, since this may be the last series. So it could now seem that Mary dominates 2 out of 4 series. But some of this will have been forced by the sudden curtailment of the show. They had to deal with the Mary story and they only took the tine they needed and wrote a full and strong female character into the bargain.
For me, John has always owed Sherlock a whole series of apologies. But I don't blame him on this, he's just a higher goldfish!
But I really don't see us getting a light, happy ending at the end of this series...
Yes, the glowing skull is a bit of a concern!
Somebody mentioned Lady Carmichael. But sorry, that was an act, wasn't it? She killed her husband, didn't she?!
On the women targeting John thing...well so far it doesn't look like that was the situation with Mary, another point in her favour.
As for Ginger, dunno'...think it was just to give some balance, so Mary didn't seem all bad. I mean she could be a plant, but I don't really see the point.
I'm not certain John didn't act upon that affair...
Oh I did have a thought on the Sherlock being high thing: he does get a bit manic though, doesn't he? When bored or anxious...think HOB etc.
I disagree on the Mary travelling thing...I think it was to show how far she would go to protect those she loved.
Yes I don't want to make excuses for John, either. But I don't think it's unusual for man in his circumstances, to want to feel he still has it. He was knackered and stressed because of baby and so a bit off away sex may seem a draw and particularly with a young thing and no commitment, rather than with the old wife.
Ah. Glad somebody mentioned that: so it WAS Mary who picked up John's phone? I did wonder.
Wow, I don't know ho anybody could be disappointed with the episode: I thought it was staggeringly good.
Er, Rosie is named after Mary's REAL identity!
Yeah well Sherlock would be only to willing to help John...if John would allow him to.
Ok again I don't either want to be too hard on John or make excuses for him.
But I do feel some women have to realise what many men are like...if they can, sometimes they will. It's in the biology.
But again are people being too hard on Mary>
She knows John will need help if she dies, she knows Sherlock is the one for the job. I don't think that's going behind John's back, that's watching his back.
I am sorry that people are seeing Mary's message as sinister. I don't see it as so. I think she may be warning Sherlock, that's all. I do NOT think she knew she was going to die, I think it was an : in case I do.
On Mary's freelance thing: I think AGRA were an independent group, but they had been hired by the government. Mycroft merely stopped using them after the incident. Possibly that was when Mary retired.
Incidentally this should maybe in the 'called it' thread. But I think this is all real. No MP or dream. I think Sherlock's recurring dream is the Redbeard one.
It was a fast, baffling episode: but hell we get our money's worth for 90 mins. They fit a lot in and it is gripping TV.
It did feel different this time.
But you know what? For me, every new series does. Plus the longer we have to wait, the more different it feels. But I do think they had so much to pack in t his time.
Er, I really do not think John was texting Sherlock...
I definitely think John and Mary really loved each other and wanted to make it work...they are just both flawed and vulnerable and REAL humans.
I am sorry, I think Sherlock is gutted about Mary...
Oh and families and relationships are messy.
How can people miss John's note to Sherlock? Though I suspect it is horrible! I think Molly fears this and wants to warn Sherlock.
I want to give a shout out to the new director: I think she did a brilliant job.
I love Sherlock's metaphysics!
Jeez, Poor Mary can't do right: she sacrifices herself to save Sherlock, because she possibly feels it was all her fault and no she's being criticised for neglecting John and Rosie. People still hate her after death!
Yeah whatever happened to the idea that we were to see a funeral at the beginning of the ep?
Peoples real lives are serialised, they are not stand alone episodes...
Again, this might be for another thread, but: so we had a man who dated women, married a woman and had an affair with a woman. I know straight men who do this, I don't know any bisexual or gay men that do this. Once again, all the evidence is to a heterosexual. Not once has John been shown to have any interest in any man.
Heavens above: Mary was seen as getting between John and Sherlock...now that guilt trip is being put on Rosie?
-Sherlock is begging the therapist to give him the tools to help John.
But I do not think the Watson marriage was doomed...they would have got it together. Death was the only dooming!
John is vulnerable...he needs caring for by Sherlock and Mary. It's caring, not going behind his back.
I think people are being very unfair on Mary. Her past caught up on her. She wasn't to know she was going to meet John. fall in love and have his child.
So Mary has trust issues, too? John really did pick the perfect match.
We cannot all live in a state of perpetual innocence.
Er yes, John did mean he was a liar, too. Again, he picked a perfect match in his wife.
Oh no, I think Sherlock's psychiatry session is real. Though I like the idea he could be telling the whole story to Ella, the real story.
People had long lists of what they wanted reconciled in this series: the team have largely done it and yet some still don't seem happy...why?
I always said the BIG reveal was HLV, that Mary had been an agent...the rest would have been icing, except that it came back to haunt her.
It will be interesting if the bus stop lady is the case..
John loves his wife...of course she was always going to be around! When a man falls in love, marries and has a child...it changes things. That's life.
I remember Sherlockology's review of the preview and mentioning expectations...I see what they mean. People had different expectations to me. I have no been disappointed.

Three Garridebs · January 2, 2017 10:08 am

I've watched the episode twice now, and below are my impressions. It may seem like I hated the episode, and I didn't, but there were a few things that stood out as things I didn't like.

I didn't like the change in the style of the show (screen cluttered with weird effects and transitions, bland/generic music, weird camera angles, etc.). It lacked the iconic "Sherlock" feel and some scenes (John on the bus) felt like they could have been in a rom-com.

Almost everyone felt out of character and their interactions slightly "off." Sherlock and John teasing Lestrade about being jealous of Sherlock getting all the credit, via John's blog, completely lacked the usual chemistry. And the idea that Lestrade would actually care seems weird. He's always freely admitted that he needs Sherlock and isn't a gloryhound (see him giving up the credit for the Waters gang bust, which had nothing to do with Sherlock, to go running to 221B).

The whole bit with the balloon felt weird. In past seasons, it felt like a funny inside joke that Sherlock would talk to John constantly, even if he wasn't there. But the balloon thing felt like John being passive aggressively snide or something. Like Sherlock and John's chemistry was tainted. In fact, a lot of the callback jokes felt very paint-by-number/let's check this off the list: not remembering Greg's name, it's never twins, Sherlock is not a girl's name, etc.

The whole John flirting/cheating/almost cheating subplot was very weird and out of character for John. I know the woman will end up having a larger significance and likely targeted John. But that doesn't excuse his behavior, unless we find out it's some type of weird double bluff and he knew he was being played.

There was just an awkwardness about the whole episode and it seemed that in a quest to make the show darker and more dramatic, they sucked a lot of the warmth and charm out too. The character building moments, in between the cases, in this episode seemed to ring hollow. In past episodes I loved moments like: The dinner at Angelo's, Sherlock heckling the tv, Sherlock stealing John an ashtray from Buckingham palace, breakfast at the inn arguing about Sherlock drugging the sugar, Mrs. Hudson explaining to Lestrade about how Connie Prince taught you to do your colors, the mini engagement party for John and Mary where Molly introduced her fiance, etc. All of those were great little moments that added character development and layers to the show. In this episode, they put moments like that in, but they all felt forced: Mary and Sherlock in the back of the car while she's in labor, the post baptism "will you be the godparents" scene, pillow talk about how Rosie and horror movies, the balloon gag, etc. And I understand some of it was intentional (between John and Mary, to show things weren't as great as they were pretending on the surface), but the rest still lacked a certain energy and life.

besleybean · January 2, 2017 10:57 am

Sadly, often the opposite is true in BBC Sherlock.

Vhanja · January 2, 2017 11:05 am

I need to watch the episode again, because I have a similar feeling to you guys - something feels "off" about the episode, but I'm unable to put my finger on exactly what. Somehow it wasn't structured like a Sherlock episode, everything happened so fast, there were hardly no time to breathe. And it was like watching John having a life that was completely separate from Sherlock, just popping by for a cuppa every now and then while he had his own drama going on.

besleybean · January 2, 2017 11:08 am

I dealt with the 'feeling off' thing in my last mega post...did it help?!
I think both John and Sherlock's dramas were all around Mary...

Vhanja · January 2, 2017 11:16 am

Yes, it was a very Mary-centric episode. And sadly, it seems that Sherlock and John's relationship will only deteriorate further. So I will just have to wait until I've seen the entire sesason to see the narrative as a whole.

June · January 2, 2017 11:18 am

Thank you Three Garridebs, your Text exactly describes my feelings towards the episode. I had expectations, yes, but not very high ones, as I expected a Mary centered show. Only that usually my expectations don't get disappointed by Sherlock. The Blind Banker did this, but it still was an enjoyable episode. This time, Not so much. The lightness was missing and the whole feeling was wrong, as you said. And as this is possibly the last season this is really horrible to me.

New fan · January 2, 2017 11:32 am

Omma is the informal word for mother in Korean (엄마). Maybe important?

besleybean · January 2, 2017 11:33 am

Ooh.

besleybean · January 2, 2017 11:45 am

!. Well the jury might be still out on this. But even if it is true, it's exactly what I would have expected him to do. The the whole point of TAB was to show that it didn't have to be the resurrected bride who carried on killing...she left a network of followers.
2. Which story is dangling in the air? You mean that Sherlock knows something is coming? Well presumably that's Culverton.
3.Yes the episode could definitely have been two...but they don't have the scope to do that. Not if they want to cover everything they need to in this series.

Vhanja · January 2, 2017 11:50 am

Yes, the episode felt like it was on "speed dial", very well put, Swanpride.

And you reminded me of another thing that struck me as odd - Sherlock's last words in TAB is that he "knows exactly what he {Moriarty] is going to do next". But in this episode, Sherlock first says that he just have to wait, then he thinks the busts have to do with Moriarty and is then confused that he is wrong.

So where did the confident "I know what he is going to do next" go? It seems in this episode he didn't know at all.

Liberty · January 2, 2017 12:06 pm

besleybean wrote:
The other thing, do we think Mary set up the 'Miss You' thing then?

Possibly. There's such an overlap between Mary and Moriarty in this episode, and we haven't quite resolved "I know what he's going to do next". One possibility is that it was Mary who set it up for Sherlock to come back, saving him the first time (her DVD title being a clue!) - getting him out of the mission and getting him a case all at once.

Well possibly I'm thick.
But I don't see why I was supposed to suspect the secretary. Such a minor character. I just knew it wasn't Mary. I actually thought the ambassador may be a double agent.

I would have liked to have had more setup with Norbury, but that it would have given it away. At first I thought "the English woman" was the ambassador too. But then with Lady Smallwood and Norbury were stopped at security, I did wonder why they were suspecting one "English woman" but not the other. Of course there was Mary's clue about secretaries knowing everything, but I didn't pick that up until later.

But I really don't see us getting a light, happy ending at the end of this series...

Not light and happy, but I don't think they will leave us on a downer. Just something unexpected.

Oh I did have a thought on the Sherlock being high thing: he does get a bit manic though, doesn't he? When bored or anxious...think HOB etc.

Yes, he does, but if this is straight after TAB, and he's clean, it means that he didn't use drugs in TAB. Which is interesting, given how heavily they featured.

Wow, I don't know ho anybody could be disappointed with the episode: I thought it was staggeringly good.

Me too! At the moment, I think it's Mark's best.

I think Sherlock's recurring dream is the Redbeard one.

Good catch! I think you're right, because that's what we see him dreaming about when Mary drugs him.

Sorry to cut so much out - I love your posts! I agree with you about adjusting to the different feel of the new series. I feel that all the series' have been different and this one is too - so far, I like the differences.

Sticks · January 2, 2017 12:09 pm

Has anyone mentioned the continuity problem with the part in Sherlock's hair as he was coming down the stairs while being teased by John and Greg? His hair for a brief shot was parted on the right side. The show is normally error free to my eyes so I'm surprised this clanger got past the dozens of eyes that would have viewed the scene in the various stages of production.

Last edited by Sticks (January 2, 2017 12:13 pm)

ewige · January 2, 2017 12:16 pm

Sticks wrote:
Has anyone mentioned the continuity problem with the part in Sherlock's hair as he was coming down the stairs while being teased by John and Greg? His hair for a brief shot was parted on the right side. The show is normally error free to my eyes so I'm surprised this clanger got past the dozens of eyes that would have viewed the scene in the various stages of production.

When Sherlock walks by it gets obvious that it's been a mirror in the hall because you see "real Sherlock" walk past his mirrored image at the very end.

Liberty · January 2, 2017 12:18 pm

Vhanja wrote:
Yes, the episode felt like it was on "speed dial", very well put, Swanpride.

And you reminded me of another thing that struck me as odd - Sherlock's last words in TAB is that he "knows exactly what he {Moriarty] is going to do next". But in this episode, Sherlock first says that he just have to wait, then he thinks the busts have to do with Moriarty and is then confused that he is wrong.

So where did the confident "I know what he is going to do next" go? It seems in this episode he didn't know at all.

I think what he meant was that he knew that before he died, Moriarty had set up a puzzle that would test him. I think that still stands - he's just not so sure what the puzzle is. It may be the one in the next episode, or the final one (the final one would make sense - it's The Final Problem after all!). I think this is part of the these three episodes being more together than separate.

I'm intrigued by Mary doing exactly the same thing - setting up a case for Sherlock in the event of her death. But presumably with good intentions. Or are they?

besleybean · January 2, 2017 12:30 pm

I do think Sherlock's 'I know what he will do next thing' refers to somebody following on from Moriarty.
I trust Mary.

Liberty · January 2, 2017 12:37 pm

Yes, well I think that if they made her the villain now, it would make a bit of a nonsense of all of TST. However, I do think there's something else that we don't know about her. I don't think she's 100% finished.

besleybean · January 2, 2017 12:40 pm

To be honest, I'll be disappointed if her story isn't finished...other than her charging Sherlock with looking after John-like he wasn't going to anyway!

Rache · January 2, 2017 12:43 pm

June wrote:
I'm new here but after this episode I just HAD to find a discussion Forum to talk about it.
I'm not sure if it was the fault of the leaking stream I was watching it on but the episode seemed weird somehow. I'll have to rewatch as I probably have missed some details and there were so many...anyway, mary's death didn't completely convince me, the repitition of the phrase "IF I'm dead..." and the resamblance to Sherlock's fake death...
Then the "visions" Sherlock seemed to be having...
All in all an episode full of suspense but lacking Sherlock and John.
Sorry for my bad englisch, it's even worse after this disturbing episode.

You know what? I feel exactly the same. The episode was... weird. It felt like a dream, don't know how to describe it better.

More details later and what I think possible reasons could be for feeling like that.