BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » First impressons and discussions

Vhanja · January 1, 2017 10:06 pm

Ok, no hold barrels. This topic is for those who have seen the episodes, so full on spoilers.

I've been crying for about the last half hour. One of my (and of course many others) predictions came true - Mary died protecting Sherlock. And dammit, you can say what you want about Mary, Amanda is a damn good actor - I cried like a baby.

However, John really can't fault Sherlock for this. This can't be the oninly explanation for their fallout.Ok, I do get that in a moment of insane grief you can say and do anything. But once he'd cool down, he should see that it wasn't really Sherlock's fault. Ok, he shouldn't have continued to provoke that woman, but I still don't see it as his fault that she decided to shoot Mary.

I think John feels a bit of guilt for almost being unfaithful and projecting that upon Sherlock.

And, oh god, Sherlock with the psychologist - I almost lost it.

I'll stop now, I'm babbling.

ewige · January 1, 2017 10:08 pm

I think John blames himself a lot because of those texts.
Well, he saw that the secretary wanted to shoot Sherlock and Mary saved him. So he lays the surviver's guilt on Sherlock too.
Funny how Mary was apparently able to predict John's reaction and Sherlock's misery.

...Did Mycroft really call Sherrinford???

Whisky · January 1, 2017 10:09 pm

I wasn't as surprised as I could have been. So, this death didn't come as a big shock... but, yes, emotional.

I don't get the end, really. Why blame Sherlock?
I mean, I understand, in a way... but then again, it's not Sherlock's fault. They have been through so much, why would John blame Sherlock now... he must have always known Mary was in that danger. And it was more her history than Sherlock's that lead to this.

It doesn't feel fair to Sherlock.

I felt the last 15 minutes where a bit rushed. I couldn't relate to all those feelings quickly enough... feeling a bit dazed by John's reaction...

Last edited by Whisky (January 1, 2017 10:12 pm)

Liberty · January 1, 2017 10:09 pm

I agree with all that, Vhanja. And what about the twist at the end? Wow! In a way, I'm irritated that the Mary story still isn't completely resolved. In another way, I'm so intrigued - she literally died saving Sherlock, so what does she have against him? And how can I wait another week or two to find out?

I thought the music was fantastic in this episode. And I agree about Amanda's acting - all were very good.

Liberty · January 1, 2017 10:10 pm

I had a question - did it start just after Sherlock got off the plane? And they said he was "clean"? So TAB wasn't drug-induced? Or was it meant to take place later?

ewige · January 1, 2017 10:11 pm

Liberty wrote:
so what does she have against him?

Why do you think she has something against him? I think she merely predicted both men's reactions. "Go to hell, Sherlock" - go to your emotional hell to save John who now hates you and come back.

Schmiezi · January 1, 2017 10:11 pm

Liberty wrote:
I agree with all that, Vhanja. And what about the twist at the end? Wow! In a way, I'm irritated that the Mary story still isn't completely resolved. In another way, I'm so intrigued - she literally died saving Sherlock, so what does she have against him? And how can I wait another week or two to find out?

Exactly what I wonder too.

tonnaree · January 1, 2017 10:12 pm

*runs through the thread naked and screaming with her hair on fire*

ewige · January 1, 2017 10:12 pm

Liberty wrote:
I had a question - did it start just after Sherlock got off the plane? And they said he was "clean"? So TAB wasn't drug-induced? Or was it meant to take place later?

I think they came directly from the plane and Sherlock said he was fine but acted really high.

Lola Red · January 1, 2017 10:12 pm

Honestly, I feel I need to let that one sink in (and probably re-watch it a couple of times) before I can talk about it in coherent sentences. What just happened?

Sherlock Holmes · January 1, 2017 10:12 pm

Well, at the end of the day, yes, Sherlock provoked her, and therefore it was HIM she decided to shoot. That bullet was coming straight for him and Mary was the one who jumped in front of it.

John is mad right now because that's his initial reaction in the wake of grief. He will cool down and realise that this wasn't Sherlock's fault. No one asked her to jump in front of that bullet.

I like the touch with Norbury though. As a canon fan, as soon as I heard her surname was actually Norbury I thought "OH SHIT this is gonna end badly". He will always blame himself, because he got too arrogant, made one too many personal deductions that were really unnecessary to the point he was trying to make, and pushed her too far. She was willing to walk away if they'd let her but, to be fair, they wouldn't have let her anyway. Mary was already stepping forward going "after what you've done" and Sherlock was having to calm HER down. I think, between the two of them, they would have pushed her to the edge and she would have snapped and shot either one of them. When John realises this he will calm down and him and Sherlock will be cool again.

Now that I've said all that, just wanted to comment on the episode as a whole.

I 100% did NOT expect to be ugly sobbing over Mary's death like I was for the last 20 minutes of the episode. I hated her at the end of Series 3 and yet I was SO upset. That is what you call great writing.

This episode was absolutely amazing. Series 3, you are totally forgiven.

Vhanja · January 1, 2017 10:13 pm

Yes, calling Sheringford! Omg!

My mind is a mess. I feel horrible for all of them. I think there was too little Sherlock and John in this episode in general. And I'm talking friends. John seemed distant, as he was too caught up in his own problems and his own life - which was separate from Sherlock's.

In a way, I felt Mary played too big a part. Then again, I am fine with it seeing as she's dead now. I wanted that to happen, but darn, it was painful when it happened. (Probably the scene Martin shot alone?) But I want more John, I want to understand how he can fault Sherlock for this as much as he does.

Liberty · January 1, 2017 10:13 pm

"Appointment in Samarra" I was sure was going to be for Mary. Then it turned out be for Vivien Norbury. Then it turned out it was for Mary after all.

I wanted more of the story of how Sherlock and Lestrade met!

I thought the Skype chat at the beginning - the pre-recorded video - made me think of the Moriarty video. But of course it was setting us up for Mary's own "Miss Me" video at the end.

Sherlock Holmes · January 1, 2017 10:15 pm

ewige wrote:
Liberty wrote:
I had a question - did it start just after Sherlock got off the plane? And they said he was "clean"? So TAB wasn't drug-induced? Or was it meant to take place later?
I think they came directly from the plane and Sherlock said he was fine but acted really high.

Sherlock claimed he was clean but was acting totally hyper and off his face. It was pretty funny. He was clearly high on more than just a case.

Vhanja · January 1, 2017 10:16 pm

Yeah, it seemed that the scene at the beginning was straight from the plane - so he was still high as a kite. Quite funny.

ewige · January 1, 2017 10:17 pm

I wasn't very happy with the ep in the beginning, it was too fluffy and weird. But I like it towards the end.

Funny how that if the darkest part is John and Sherlock's fallout, than the highest one must be their reconciliation in the end.

Liberty · January 1, 2017 10:17 pm

And I agree about crying over Mary's death - I didn't expect to, but it really got me. It was very well done. John's wail of grief was heartbreaking too.

Now Mary must have known she was going to die, if she sent the video to Sherlock. He was only supposed to receive it if she was gone. (It's Irene's phone all over again!). So I think her plan was to get shot by Norbury, even if she hadn't thought that through - she must have known she was going to die imminently. So perhaps she wasn't so much saving Sherlock but putting herself in the line of the bullet, because ... that was her fate somehow? She had to die for some reason, and wanted to? It must be - because she'd sent the video.

Sherlock Holmes · January 1, 2017 10:17 pm

Vhanja wrote:
Yes, calling Sheringford! Omg!

My mind is a mess. I feel horrible for all of them. I think there was too little Sherlock and John in this episode in general. And I'm talking friends. John seemed distant, as he was too caught up in his own problems and his own life - which was separate from Sherlock's.

In a way, I felt Mary played too big a part. Then again, I am fine with it seeing as she's dead now. I wanted that to happen, but darn, it was painful when it happened. (Probably the scene Martin shot alone?) But I want more John, I want to understand how he can fault Sherlock for this as much as he does.

It's just grief and anger talking. He'll calm down and realise Sherlock wasn't to blame. People react differently when faced with grief. Sherlock promised he would always protect Mary, and John has ALWAYS trusted Sherlock.

Liberty · January 1, 2017 10:18 pm

Yes, it did sound like he was on speed or something - but I presume had been drug tested. So maybe genuinely excited and relieved? I too, wonder if they still do Mivvis!

Last edited by Liberty (January 1, 2017 10:19 pm)

Titania · January 1, 2017 10:19 pm

I'm on shock...give me a blanket please!!!!!
I'm not sure i will survive the next 2 episodes... I need to rewatch it ASAP... "Go to hell"....