BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » The Series 4 Johnlock speculation thread (contains spoilers)

SusiGo · December 13, 2016 6:27 pm

In the light of all the new promo stuff and older information I felt the need to open a thread concentrating on further developments in Sherlock/John relationship. Here we can collect and discuss ideas and evidence for the progression towards a romantic relationship in S4, for subtext finally becoming text (and Canon).

Here is a list which is by no means complete.

- SDCC 2016: Benedict's air kiss and his "Love conquers all", his statements about Sherlock's so far "very limited sex life" - meaning Sherlock has a sort of sex life and it does not necessarily have to remain limited.

- Amanda's words about S4: "I’ve been saying to people if we pull this off television history. I think it really will. It’s kind of groundbreaking. They’ve done something again, the guys, that’s never been done before. And uh. It’s dead exciting." We have a female Watson in "Elementary", we had hetero SH in love with Irene Adler and other women, we had Holmes being in (unrequitedly) in love with Watson, but so far there has not been a single adaptation in which they are allowed to be in a romantic relationship.

- John's changed appearance: He was married and going to be a father in series 3 and chose to keep his old hairstyle. From setlock and the trailers I would say that this is a very different John to the one we have seen before. More elegant, very confident. In all the setlock things I saw he did not once look like a devastated father who lost his child, or like an abandoned or grieving husband. Remember, he grew an ugly moustace for Mary. So I wonder for whom he has become so elegant and styled. Product in hair.

- The conspicuous absence of romantic promo shots - the promo shots for 1,2, and 3 were very much in your face, especially those made for S3 where they even seemed to film a scene at that pizzeria and then only used the longing glances for the artwork. I can imagine that this time we are not going to need those promos because we are going to get the real thing in the show.

- The fact that the baby is either not mentioned or not shown or presented in a dark environment with parents who do not seem to be in any way interested in her.

- The trailer - well. Of course Sherlock could quote someone or it could be a realisation in his MP or at the end of a deduction. Which does not change anything about the fact that the words are there. The Spanish subtitles prove that he is speaking of romantic love and that his words are addressed to one person only. Which excludes his family for one thing.
If we apply Occam's razor, we can probably exclude Molly, Irene, Janine and other females as well since I do not believe that they are going to throw in a random woman as love interest. So I would go for John. And even if he is alone in the scene, i.e. in his mind, this does not mean that he will say it only this once or not to the person in question. I think this is their approach of "softly, softly" preparing larger audiences for their groundbreaking step.

- "Insane wish fulfillment" - there are not many things that could be described in this way. They had one of those wish fulfillments in TAB when Holmes and Watson faced Moriarty together at the waterfall. "There's always two of us." This was big. What could be bigger than that? And "insane wish fulfillment" IMO cannot be anything negative - Sherlock or John dying, for example, which would be a bombshell nobody wants to see, Moftiss included.

- The whole discussion about a series 5 - Moftiss had clearly stated that they had conceived series 4 AND 5 in a single day. And suddenly there is talk about "the end of an era", of a long pause after S4, the word "final" in the episode title. I hope the show will go on (and Beryl Vertue has alluded that it probably will) but what if are not sure how the audience will react? What could happen that might turn people from watching the show? They are usually very sure about the quality of their work but what if it was the content, the groundbreaking story they chose to tell?

This is all for now. I am sure there is more so please feel free to add your thoughts.

Last edited by SusiGo (December 13, 2016 6:35 pm)

ewige · December 13, 2016 6:47 pm

I've nothing to add to your brilliant compilation (thank you for that!).
I just wanted to say that "softly, softly" was not what I had in mind when I heard Sherlock's "I love you"
Also, good catch on the possible reason behind all the "final season" talk.

mrshouse · December 13, 2016 6:56 pm

There's a lot to think about, thank you, Susi. I need some time I think for that.

This Is The Phantom Lady · December 13, 2016 7:07 pm

The fact that this is modern day Sherlock Holmes makes me even more hopeful. There's no laws stopping them, there are no harsh social Victorian bonds keeping them apart. (unless you count the bigots; but those are not the majority anymore, thank goodness).

Lola Red · December 13, 2016 7:12 pm

I would not be overly surprised if Johnlock would become canon; or if it didn't. If it does, however, it will hardly be the "softly,softly" approach that Mark had envisioned (where the sexuality of the character(s) not a plot point, but just a fact of the show), but a major, if not the show-defining plot point. I cannot wait for the relationship of Sherlock and John to develop further, regardless of weather it is a romance or a friendship, it will always be the heart of the show.

SusiGo · December 13, 2016 7:12 pm

True. And in the light of changing moods and politics in the UK and elsewhere (and BBC cuts) they might go for it now.

And another thing - I know that trailers are meant to tease us, mixing dialogue and combining it with unconnected scenes. Which makes me quite sure that the words about the darkest secrets do not belong to the 'I love you'. Especially since the sentence seems to be from TFP with Culverton Smith appearing in TLD.

tonnaree · December 13, 2016 8:28 pm

I, the President and founder of the Official Society of Aggressive Johnlockers, approve this thread.

Liberty · December 13, 2016 8:42 pm

I'm intrigued by John's new look too, but canonically he always wore product in his hair! Remember when Sherlock "deduced" Jim from IT (and John aruged that wearing product isn't an indicator of sexual orientation!). I agree about him not looking devastated. It's very intriguing. Although if he lost his child, he would be devastated regardless of Johnlock, wouldn't he?   (It could actually mean that the child is still alive, even that Mary is still alive ... I have been wondering if they'll end up doing what we least expect).

I also agree that it wouldn't be the "softly, softly" approach Mark talked about. That would have been the opposite - not making any issue of their orientation.

But we'll see.   I too am looking forward to seeing their relationship develop in whatever way it does. S3 was kind of difficult.

SusiGo · December 13, 2016 8:55 pm

Yes, he had always product in his hair because he was always interested in men. He just did not follow his impulses for various reasons.

And jokes aside - I think that John's changed appearance may reflect deeper changes in his character. Sherlock has made enormous progress where emotions are concerned. John is somehow lagging behind. There is hardly any development for him in S3, something that has been criticised more than once. In my opinion has has suppressed lots of things - his feelings for Sherlock, his anger at Mary (kicking a chair it not an appropriate reaction to her betrayal), his issues with the fall. I think all this has to be addressed, he cannot remain static while Sherlock keeps making progress, discovering things about himself.

Last edited by SusiGo (December 13, 2016 8:56 pm)

tonnaree · December 13, 2016 11:18 pm

This is some very interesting observations on the Watson Family Portrait.
http://inevitably-johnlocked.tumblr.com/post/154386819935/the-watson-family-portrait

Schmiezi · December 14, 2016 4:10 am

I still have Benedict's "love conquers all" in my mind. So I am confident that at the end of S4, Sherlock's and John's relationship will finally have moved forward. :-)

miriel68 · December 14, 2016 7:47 am

Schmiezi wrote:
I still have Benedict's "love conquers all" in my mind. So I am confident that at the end of S4, Sherlock's and John's relationship will finally have moved forward. :-)

TBH, this point seems to me the least convincing of all. I still remember B. very strong reaction during the Q & A with Caitlin Moran for the 3rd series and how he said very vehemently that imagining John and Sherlock being a couple in this show was "ludicrous". If I remember well, some fans even felt offended by his words.

Liberty · December 14, 2016 8:17 am

I think the "love conquers all" is very relevant, but apparently not enough to be a spoiler. I have a feeling there is going to be a surprise around this. I just don't know what yet.

The family portrait - I'll just point out that I don't think that is supposed to be an actual family portrait that the Watson's had done, but a promo shot for the series. So it reflects some things that are going on there, and has a dark feel, which is one of the reasons I like it. I don't think the baby's face has been publicly shown at all (not just in that photo), which may mean something or may not.

But I have to take issue with the idea that the photo is unflattering to Mary. I think she looks gorgeous here! And I like the baby's blanket. I do think there is foreshadowing in the picture though.

miriel68 · December 14, 2016 8:35 am

I do agree this is a promotional photo meant extactly to stir speculation and interest among fans. Evil Moftiss at work, lol. But of course it must hint at something we can actually expect in the show, much like the georgeous promo shot of Sherlock looking at John through the window for the 3rd series.

Pav · December 14, 2016 8:45 am

Great summary, Susi. I would add Mark's very telling statement about "a camp gay" and "a grumpy bisexual". For me, if nothing more, the fact they included "I love you" in the trailer shows that series 4 will be focusing on love/feelings/relationships even more than usual.

SolarSystem · December 14, 2016 10:33 am

miriel68 wrote:
I do agree this is a promotional photo meant extactly to stir speculation and interest among fans. Evil Moftiss at work, lol.

I agree. And if they had given us a promotional family picture which showed John, Mary and the baby as a really happy family, in front of a bright background, wearing pleasant clothes, people would have speculated as well. In my opinion it doesn't really matter what kind of promotional pictures they are giving us: There will always be speculation, there will always be people saying "This is fake", "This is a trick" and all that.
Let's not forget that the promo pic with Sherlock and John is just as dark as the family picture. Sherlock and John aren't even looking at each other. To some people this feels right, to some people it feels weird... you can interpret all sorts of things into those pictures (which is the beauty of it!).

Vhanja · December 14, 2016 11:18 am

SolarSystem wrote:
I agree. And if they had given us a promotional family picture which showed John, Mary and the baby as a really happy family, in front of a bright background, wearing pleasant clothes, people would have speculated as well. In my opinion it doesn't really matter what kind of promotional pictures they are giving us: There will always be speculation, there will always be people saying "This is fake", "This is a trick" and all that.
Let's not forget that the promo pic with Sherlock and John is just as dark as the family picture. Sherlock and John aren't even looking at each other. To some people this feels right, to some people it feels weird... you can interpret all sorts of things into those pictures (which is the beauty of it!).

I agree with this. No matter how the promo pics had been done, or how the trailers had been done, there would always have been speculations. And those speculations will always be in favor of whatever theory fans like or believe in.

SusiGo · December 14, 2016 11:51 am

Liberty wrote:
I think the "love conquers all" is very relevant, but apparently not enough to be a spoiler.

You know what is funny? It would be a very big surprise for most viewers if it was John. I had a look at how mainstream media reacted to the trailer and did not find a single article mentioning John in this context. They spoke of romance, feelings, love interest, new developments for Sherlock but of those I read not a single one mentioned Johnlock. From this I would conclude that for most people it would be a big surprise indeed which means that showing it at this point was not a spoiler.

tonnaree · December 14, 2016 1:07 pm

I also agree that the promo shot was not meant to represent a "real" family photo of the Watsons. But I did find the comparisons very interesting. It's like it's the farthest away from "normal" they could get.

I have found all of the promo material for S4 to be dark and creepy.

SolarSystem · December 14, 2016 1:15 pm

tonnaree wrote:
I also agree that the promo shot was not meant to represent a "real" family photo of the Watsons. But I did find the comparisons very interesting. It's like it's the farthest away from "normal" they could get.

And wouldn't it be ironic if after giving us this not normal family promo pic, they'd end up showing us some pretty normal family scenes in S4? I'm not saying that they will and I'm not saying that I'd like to see this, I'm just saying that just like with pretty much everything they have been giving us so far it's possible that they are misleading us completely. Well, maybe not completely, because it seems to be a certainty that S4 will indeed be very dark. But maybe it won't be dark in the places in which we're expecting it to be dark.