BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Johnlock: The Official Debate

tonnaree · October 13, 2016 6:01 pm

Vhanja wrote:
I've seen him drink alcohol in three different occasions:

1. When under great emotional stress (MHR
2. Seasonal enjoyment (a beer at the Christmas party, a whiskey at New Year's Eve)
3. Social drinking (Stag night and beer at the pub with Mike Stamford)

To me, he seems to have normal relations with alcohol, more so than Sherlock, whom we only see drinking twice in the whole series, and both in not-normal circumstances.

There's a forth occasion that I feel should at least partially count. When Sherlock calls to John after finding Irene in his bed, John walks into the room holding a bottle of wine.

besleybean · October 13, 2016 6:03 pm

It's Christmas and New Year...
I am tee total, but the alcohol consumption in the show seems in line with other people to me.

Vhanja · October 13, 2016 6:06 pm

I agree. I know some people have talked about John having an alcohol problem, but I don't see that at all. I see someone with a very normal, bordering on light, alcohol consumption.

As for the bottle of wine, I always saw that as him preparing dinner for Sherlock and him.

Liberty · October 21, 2016 7:46 pm

Well, I have been slacking on the questions front! I should have posted them all before S4!
http://wmsscottholmes.tumblr.com/post/149143324929/if-tjlc-isnt-real

• Why was solving crimes and going on a date linked together via Molly?
Molly still has some attraction to Sherlock and jumps hopefully and embarrasingly to that conclusion.   Whereas Sherlock is asking her along for a platonic activity - solving crimes, in John’s role.

• Why did Sherlock keep hearing John’s voice in his head?
He missed him. It’s always Sherlock and John - Sherlock and Molly (or anybody else) doesn’t really work.

• Why did he call Molly 'John’?
Again, because he missed John, and Molly was in John’s role. He’s using her as a John replacement (as a thank you), but it doesn’t really work. He needs the real John.

• Why did John shave off his mustache because Sherlock didn’t like it?
He wasn’t aware it didn’t suit him until Sherlock told him, and he also cares about what Sherlock thinks. Once Sherlock mentioned it, Mary admitted that she didn’t like it either, and John realises it doesn’t suit him.

• Why did John not want 'Mary’ to read his blog?
She’s actually reading a quote from canon, more or less. Anyway, it seems that it’s something they’ve talked about before, and John has called it “ancient history”. Mary reminds him that it isn’t any more (as she expects him and Sherlock to get back together).

• Why does 'Mary’ always tease John about Sherlock?
I think it’s part of her making him realise what he feels for him.   Her “banter” does seem aimed at trying to reconcile them (“I’ll talk him round”).

• Why did John look delighted at the prospect of Sherlock coming to the clinic in disguise?
Because he really wanted to see him.

• Why was Sherlock so panicked when he realised that John was in danger?
I’m not sure how to answer this - wouldn’t it be odder if he didn’t care? John is his pressure point, and his life is in danger, and there is some urgency.

SusiGo · October 28, 2016 8:58 am

"We had a first-class carriage to ourselves — and laying a hand upon each of my knees he looked into my eyes with the peculiarly mischievous gaze which was characteristic of his more imp-like moods."

I bet you can show this quote to a hundred people and at least 90% percent of them will tell you that this is the opening of a hot love scene on a train.

Vhanja · October 28, 2016 9:01 pm

The list that LIberty so awesomely have replied to, would never convince me about Johnlock.

However, this one could:

http://gay-sherlock-holmes.tumblr.com/post/151212050413/sherlock-holmes-is-so-in-love-with-john-watson

No, I don't think it will happen in the show, and, yes, I do think that a lot of the points of that list can just as easily be explained with friendship. However, this list is probably the strongest case I've ever read about how Johnlock works as a valid interpretation. (Or, at least, that Sherlock might be in love with John).

SusiGo · October 28, 2016 9:09 pm

Very good compilation. And since I do not believe that they are going to remain boringly static and show us a deeply unhappy Sherlock until the end of the show, I am sure that Johnlock will become real.

Vhanja · October 28, 2016 9:23 pm

I don't think that the only alternative to Johnlock is to be boring static or to have an unhappy Sherlock. Because just as I can see Johnlock as a valid interpretation, I can also see the "only" friendship interpretation as just as valid. So depending on which way the shows goes (which I think Moftiss have already made quite clear), they could show them happy in a romantic relationship or happy as friends.

So I don't think that list shows the only plausible explanation. But I think it makes such a good case that I can see Johnlock as a valid alternative.

So we have two interpretations that works, at least for me. Which way will they go? Well, as mentioned, I think they have - unfortunately - made that quite clear.

SusiGo · October 28, 2016 9:33 pm

Series had them as best friends and deeply unhappy. Both of them. Most of the time. There is not much happiness in series 3 for either of them. What do you think must happen to make them happy while still being platonic friends?

Vhanja · October 28, 2016 9:37 pm

SusiGo wrote:
Series had them as best friends and deeply unhappy. Both of them. Most of the time. There is not much happiness in series 3 for either of them. What do you think must happen to make them happy while still being platonic friends?

Finding back to what they had in S2. The two of them living together, wiithout Irene, Moriarty or Mary in their lives, solving crimes and quarreling over severed heads and lack of milk.

SusiGo · October 28, 2016 9:44 pm

And John who was always trying to pull and always failed in his relationships? Or maybe post-ASiB John who gave up girlfriends and concentrated on … well, his domestic life?

Vhanja · October 28, 2016 9:53 pm

Yeah, John stopped pulling after ASiB. To me, HoB has always been the peak of their relationship.

Schmiezi · October 28, 2016 10:21 pm

Vhanja wrote:
Yeah, John stopped pulling after ASiB. To me, HoB has always been the peak of their relationship.

For me, this is one of the strongest arguments FOR Johnlock. Returning to the status quo of series 2 is no progress, and not the way you plan a drama TV show.

SusiGo · October 29, 2016 8:52 am

Schmiezi wrote:
Vhanja wrote:
Yeah, John stopped pulling after ASiB. To me, HoB has always been the peak of their relationship.
For me, this is one of the strongest arguments FOR Johnlock. Returning to the status quo of series 2 is no progress, and not the way you plan a drama TV show.

Yes. I think we have been shown quite clearly that there is no way back to a pre-fall status. Wherever their relationship will go, there will be no repeat of that.

Vhanja · October 29, 2016 9:48 am

I am not sure. I wouldn't call it go back, because both characters have grown and changed. It's more about coming full circle than going back. That has been done in several movies - the characters seem to end up where they started, only they are not the same anymore.

Also, wasn't the plan sort of to start the series before the books? So, depending on how long the series will go on, they might end where the books begin?

Schmiezi · October 29, 2016 11:52 am

Vhanja wrote:
That has been done in several movies - the characters seem to end up where they started, only they are not the same anymore.

Which ones?

Vhanja · October 29, 2016 11:54 am

First one that comes to mind is LotR, with the hobbits returning to the Shire.

Liberty · October 29, 2016 12:44 pm

Vhanja wrote:
I am not sure. I wouldn't call it go back, because both characters have grown and changed. It's more about coming full circle than going back. That has been done in several movies - the characters seem to end up where they started, only they are not the same anymore.

Also, wasn't the plan sort of to start the series before the books? So, depending on how long the series will go on, they might end where the books begin?

I'm not sure about it being before the books, because they do use the books in the show. I think Moftiss said ages something about starting before the Rathbone films (they might have meant other adapations but that's what stuck with me). I've been very curious about the end of S4E03, as they've mentioned that is a much more Rathbone/Bruce type of film, and I wonder if that is the point where Sherlock gets to where he's going. We know there's a S5, but it might be a big divergence from that point.

Anyway, Rathbone/Bruce seemed quite cosy and at ease together. I know they are different characters to our ones (particularly Watson), but there are elements of closeness and regard that I'd be happy to see.

Liberty · October 29, 2016 12:55 pm

Vhanja wrote:
The list that LIberty so awesomely have replied to, would never convince me about Johnlock.

However, this one could:

http://gay-sherlock-holmes.tumblr.com/post/151212050413/sherlock-holmes-is-so-in-love-with-john-watson

No, I don't think it will happen in the show, and, yes, I do think that a lot of the points of that list can just as easily be explained with friendship. However, this list is probably the strongest case I've ever read about how Johnlock works as a valid interpretation. (Or, at least, that Sherlock might be in love with John).

These are great! I'm tempted to add them to the end of my other list (which I still haven't finished). They would make good discussion points at least.

The comments about TSOT jump out at me, because I think there are so many references to friendship there, and it appears to be explicitly about their friendship. But I do think the sticking point for me, is that none of these are explicitly showing romantic or sexual attraction. They are showing things like depth of feeling, love, etc. Either way, it's made very clear that Sherlock loves John, that they would sacrifice themselves for each other, that they saved each other, etc., etc. John is clearly shown as the centre of Sherlock's life, and his pressure point. All of the points in that post seem to tie into that, rather than romantic/sexual attraction.

And yes, I think Moftiss have been as clear as they can be about their intentions (although that doesn't mean that people can't interpret the story in a different way to the way they intended!).

SusiGo · October 29, 2016 1:04 pm

Vhanja wrote:
First one that comes to mind is LotR, with the hobbits returning to the Shire.

And Frodo leaving and Sam and the others being very sad.