Well, I have the idea that she will be part of the rest of the world Sherlock and John are against. 
 

Schmiezi wrote:

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:

Just trying to understand where some folks are coming from-- does Mary's love for John make her a "good guy"? In other words-- no matter what she's done in the past, no matter how badly she hurt Sherlock ( and John!) does the idea that she "did it to keep John" make everything she did forgivable? Being in love is what gives her "good guy" status? Serious question. 

I would rephrase the question a bit:

What other character traits or actions qualify her as a "good guy"?

Because I fail to see them!

I'm with you on this, Schmiezi, but the reason I worded the question as I did was that I hear people saying that Mary's "love" for John is the big issue for them. That, and John's forgiveness (?) of Mary. So-- what I'm observing is that those two things mean that she *must be* a good guy-- otherwise those two actions wouldn't have happened?
In other words-- "because I can't imagine John ever forgiving someone bad, or John loving someone bad, Mary must be good."  Make sense? 

Schmiezi wrote:

Not to me, that's why I was hoping for an answer from someone who sees her goodie qualities.

But I know the argument you've mentioned, Raven.

I'm looking for those "goodie" qualities myself , and I think it rather boils down to...likeability. It's her demeanor from TEH and TSoT, -- and, if it's your cup of tea-- her pixie, ultra competent-yet-down-to-earth, quirky, slightly nerdy vibe I think a lot of us latched on to. It was so hard to reconcile that with Cold, Murderous Mary...

Okay-- so, what I get is a  characterization of Mary that simply doesn't make sense. 

Yeah, Mary is attractive as a personality in TEH and TSoT--  *and* is a cold-hearted murdering assassin.

The thing is-- if Mary was to be seen as a "good guy", why the scenes of (a) Sherlock fighting his way back from death, (b) Sherlock looking down at his own murdered body, (c) Mary threatening Sherlock in the hospital,  and (4) Mary tracking Sherlock to Leinster gardens, equipped with gun and silencer-- ready to shoot Sherlock again? 

SO confusing.
 

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:

Just trying to understand where some folks are coming from-- does Mary's love for John make her a "good guy"? In other words-- no matter what she's done in the past, no matter how badly she hurt Sherlock ( and John!) does the idea that she "did it to keep John" make everything she did forgivable? Being in love is what gives her "good guy" status? Serious question. 

As serious questions deserve sincere answers, let me start with saying that I do not see Mary as a "good guy", but compared to some others I have a relatively mild view of her, that is to say, I see her as a dark grey character, rather than a pitch black one.
And yes, I think that her love for John is a redeeming feature in her character. That does not make everything she does or has done forgiveable, but I think it humanizes her. I have, at the very beginning of this thread, written in detail of why I think she behaves as she does on the screen. That is assuming that everything we are shown is real. I think (until proven otherwise) that she honestly loves John and likes Sherlock, but there is a dangerous side to her that comes out when her secret is in danger. I also believe that she was a loose cannon between the shooting and John finding out about her past, but that that danger creased to exist when her secret came out and she, from her point of view, lost everything. I think her relieve and surprise are genuine when John forgives her and I do believe that Sherlock trusts her enough to leave John with her. I think Mary is a highly complicated character, but I don't think she has no redeeming qualities whatsoever.

kgreen20 wrote:

That's my feeling as well.  And in spite of the real name that the series has chosen to give her, whatever that turns out to be, the name that she goes by is the same name in canon; therefore, she cannot be made the complete opposite in character from the woman with that name in the book series.

 

Yes, yes she can.  The powers that be can do whatever they want to with her.  And although everyone has opinions we still do not know what they're final view of the character will be.

Ooh, that is so strange, because I was watching that very episode last night too! 

Yes, and very like TAB in the hints that things aren't what they seem. 

I bet they have!  And Mark Gatiss has worked with Hugh Laurie, so I'm sure they know each other.  Not that that's really relevant.  But I think as well as deliberate borrowing/referencing, there's also no doubt some subconscious allusions going on as well.   It can't be helped. 

Anyway, don't want to spoil House for anybody, but I think I can see what you're getting at with the EMP connection

first, that obviously although a couple of scenes are explicitly hallucinations, in fact everything after the shooting is a hallucination/mind palace, until the end of the episode.  Second, I do think there's a case for the whole episode, including the shooting, being MP, especially given his opiate use in the previous episode.  But regardless, there's a big connection to Sherlock in the theme of solving personal problems through a mind palace scenario, disguising them as a "case". 

I still think it's so funny that we were watching the same episode on the same night!  What a coincidence?  Except that I suppose the chance of Sherlock fans being House fans is fairly high, and there are only so many episodes, so maybe not that surprising! 

Last edited by Liberty (November 17, 2016 9:50 pm)

Here is a very interesting comparison between Sherlock and Mary by a tumblr friend of mine. I was baffled by the parallels:

http://gosherlocked.tumblr.com/post/153379390076/a-mirror-hiding-in-plain-sight