BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Mary

SusiGo · October 17, 2016 6:58 am

mrshouse wrote:
tonnaree wrote:
Lately I feel that I don't care why she shot Sherlock. No matter why, she did shoot him and his heart did stop.
I will never get over that.
Yes, thank you, tonnaree. This. And tbh, how she was shown in TAB I also don't feel represented by her character in a positive way. As a woman.

Agreed. I really wonder how anyone can watch TAB and think that Sherlock sees her in a positive light. At best she is depicted as shady, having dealings with Mycroft behind their back, spying on the other women, intrusively checking what Sherlock has been reading on his phone. There is nothing left of "lovely Mary" anymore.

Liberty · October 17, 2016 7:18 am

She starts off working for Mycroft but ends up collaborating with Sherlock. The women she spies on are murderers, and it's a crime that Sherlock is trying to solve. I realise people will see it differently, but I don't see it as a revelation that she was planning to kill him, and that Sherlock is plotting against her. And if that's what Sherlock felt and believed, I think it would have to have come through in TAB. There are slight hints that she could be linked to Moriarty, but that's as far as it goes - that could suggest that Sherlock is still working on the question of Mary, but not (I think) that he has been plotting against her through the end of HLV.

SusiGo · October 17, 2016 7:32 am

Is she truly collaborating with Sherlock? I do not think so. True, she leads him to the women's cult but:
- he was told by Mycroft that it actually did not matter to solve the case because the women were going to win anyway
- she speaks to him in a very condescending, even contemptuous way
- it might be regarded as a sort of betrayal on Mary's part because in the beginning we are made to believe she is part of a women's movement herself
- she leads Sherlock not only to the women but straight to Moriarty, dressed as a bride = the women = Mary
- there is a direct connection between Moriarty "You're dreaming" and Mary "Is he dreaming?"

I think these are more than just small hints that Sherlock in his subconscious at least is suspicious of Mary and does not trust her. Plus the still not explained fact that Mycroft of all people suddenly consults Mary about MI6 security although they have not exchanged a single word in the whole show.

Liberty · October 17, 2016 8:58 am

Yes, that's what I meant about the Moriarty hints. Mycroft talking to Mary about security seems to be a hint that she could have been working for him in real life at some point, and that's why Sherlock has her working for him in his mind palace. I can't remember the exact wording, but I got the impression that Mary was supporting votes for women, rather than the conspiracy. But being a woman would certainly have made it possible to spy in a way that a man couldn't.

I think there's still a lot of mystery there, things that Sherlock doesn't know and even more that we don't know! But I don't get the impression that he's sees her as a threat, that he and John are trying to deceive her into thinking that she's safe while plotting to get rid of her, etc. - all the things that would point to Sherlock lying about his deduction in HLV. TAB seems to rule that out, although it doesn't rule out Sherlock just being wrong about her, of course.

Schmiezi · October 17, 2016 9:35 pm

tonnaree wrote:
Lately I feel that I don't care why she shot Sherlock. No matter why, she did shoot him and his heart did stop.
I will never get over that.

Me neither.

besleybean · October 18, 2016 5:35 am

As with Johnlock, for me, this always feels like another big schism in the fandom: whether or not you can get past what Mary did in HLV.
Though at least I believe that one may be sorted before Johnlock.

Liberty · October 18, 2016 6:38 am

I do think it's a difficult one. Even assuming that everything Sherlock says in the deduction is true, that Mary didn't mean to kill him, that he trust her, that even perhaps she only killed people who "deserved to die", then we're still left with her deliberately gravely injuring Sherlock. I only really get my head round it by thinking that in this universe, Sherlock would eventually bounce back and she knew that.

Although it doesn't let her off the hook in any way (it's not even clear whether she knows it), she's only at risk because of Sherlock (via John and Mycroft). I don't suppose Magnussen would have been interested in her if she hadn't been part of the chain. The safest thing for her to do would have been to disappear, something she's clearly capable of doing, but she chooses to stay even though it's risky for her.

SusiGo · October 18, 2016 7:06 am

And by this putting John into danger as well since the threat expressly extends also to him (and their unborn child):

"I know where to find people who hate her. I know where they live; I know their phone numbers.
All in my Mind Palace – all of it could phone them right now and tear your whole life down –"

Schmiezi · October 18, 2016 8:38 am

SusiGo wrote:
And by this putting John into danger as well since the threat expressly extends also to him (and their unborn child):

"I know where to find people who hate her. I know where they live; I know their phone numbers.
All in my Mind Palace – all of it could phone them right now and tear your whole life down –"

Well, Sherlock left London and went through torture to keep John safe.

Just saying.

besleybean · October 18, 2016 4:35 pm

I honestly don't think it was just for John, that time.

kgreen20 · October 18, 2016 5:07 pm

John, Mrs. Hudson, and Lestrade, to be precise. Fortunately, Molly slipped under Moriarty's radar, so she wasn't targeted.

Last edited by kgreen20 (October 18, 2016 5:08 pm)

besleybean · October 18, 2016 5:09 pm

Oh, I see what you mean.
I wasn't actually referring to that.
I meant he went off to dismantle Moriarty's network.

Liberty · October 18, 2016 6:01 pm

Yes, I think that although Sherlock is protecting "the three", it was always his plan to dismantle the network. He mentions that Moriarty isn't just one person, and so he couldn't get rid of him even by killing him.

What I meant about the chain is that Sherlock is at risk because of he's Mycroft's pressure point (i.e. he is used to manipulate or get to Mycroft), John is at risk because he's Sherlock's, and Mary is at risk because she's John's. It's actually John (and Sherlock and Mycroft) who are a risk to Mary, rather than the other way around. Without them, Magnussen would presumably file away the information, but wouldn't have reason to use it. So actually, it's not Mary putting John in danger, but John (inadvertently) putting Mary in danger.

But yes, you could argue that she's putting herself, and therefore her unborn baby, at risk by staying with John, when she could easily have "disappeared".

She's such a mystery, and I do wonder if she had any inkling that Sherlock might actually end up assassinating Magnussen? I think probably not, but what else would make her safe?

cmb711 · October 19, 2016 12:14 pm

cmb711 wrote:
She shoots Sherlock, knowing he might die but trying not to kill him, because she's desperate and can't think what else to do. As Sherlock says, she was "hoping to buy time to negotiate my silence."

Quoting myself here. After re-watching that scene multiple times, I've changed my mind. I still think Mary is basically a good guy, mostly, and perhaps she wanted CAM to see her shoot Sherlock to blow his mind a bit. . . . but she is definitely not desperate. Calm, cool, and collected, in fact, until after she's actually pulled the trigger, and then still very much in control. She doesn't lose her cool until she knows John knows her secret, and by the time they get back to Baker Street, she is in control of herself again.

I really don't mean to start this discussion up again. Just correcting my earlier impression.

Schmiezi · October 19, 2016 12:26 pm

So she calmly, cooly, collectedly caused Sherlock immense pain and risked his death.

I fully agree with you - but can she be a good person then? I really don't get that!

RavenMorganLeigh · October 20, 2016 12:17 am

Just trying to understand where some folks are coming from-- does Mary's love for John make her a "good guy"? In other words-- no matter what she's done in the past, no matter how badly she hurt Sherlock ( and John!) does the idea that she "did it to keep John" make everything she did forgivable? Being in love is what gives her "good guy" status? Serious question.

Liberty · October 20, 2016 6:34 am

No, for me, it's just a case of trying to understand who she is and what her motives are - and also trying to understand how Sherlock and John see her.

Schmiezi · October 20, 2016 6:51 am

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:
Just trying to understand where some folks are coming from-- does Mary's love for John make her a "good guy"? In other words-- no matter what she's done in the past, no matter how badly she hurt Sherlock ( and John!) does the idea that she "did it to keep John" make everything she did forgivable? Being in love is what gives her "good guy" status? Serious question.

I would rephrase the question a bit:

What other character traits or actions qualify her as a "good guy"?

Because I fail to see them!

SusiGo · October 20, 2016 7:33 am

Well, the thing is of course that we can base our opinions exclusively on the persona we know, the glimpses we get of "Mary Morstan" who has never existed in the first place. So who is the real Mary? The funny, caring friend from TEH and the napkin scene (not that I share this view but this is how many people view her there)? The pissed off wife at the beginning of HLV? The ruthless assassin in CAM's office? The excellent shot kicking away the coin so Sherlock has to pick it up? The tearful mother-to-be in the Christmas scene? The coolly assessing person on the plane in TAB? None of them? All of them? She constantly eludes our grasp.

Last edited by SusiGo (October 20, 2016 7:33 am)

mrshouse · October 20, 2016 7:44 am

Very well put together, Susi, I think she's a bit of all. BUT -and that answers Liberty's remark- to be very honest: I simply don't have the patience anymore to grasp her. I want to move on. She's a side character and should remain so in a show about Sherlock and John. I'm tired to try to understand her for another three episodes (maybe more, who the hell knows?). I don't know why I feel like this, maybe because everything around her is sold so hard, maybe because I simply don't see what I'm told she's supposed to be. I just don't want all of it anymore. I find myself also not interested in her background anymore. As I said, I want to move on and have Sherlock and John against the rest of the world.