BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Johnlock: The Official Debate

JP · October 9, 2016 4:34 pm

Why they never say or do anything that is unquestionably showing their romantic/sexual interest in each other?

Liberty · October 9, 2016 5:03 pm

The original questions were here:
http://wmsscottholmes.tumblr.com/post/149143324929/if-tjlc-isnt-real

I should really put the link at the top of my answer posts!

GimmeCat · October 10, 2016 1:55 pm

JP wrote:
Why they never say or do anything that is unquestionably showing their romantic/sexual interest in each other?

It would be bad storytelling, for one (Mark doesn't like such "on the nose" writing) and ruin the 'reveal' if they are indeed planning on such.

SusiGo · October 10, 2016 1:57 pm

Agreed. I think the writers prefer them to show their feelings by their actions. Remember the old writers' advice: "Show, don't tell?"

Schmiezi · October 10, 2016 2:04 pm

SusiGo wrote:
"Show, don't tell?"

This is exactly what I do to interpret single scenes and the show as a whole: I look at what I can see.

For me, it is very telling.

SusiGo · October 10, 2016 2:09 pm

You can say "I love you and would gladly give my life for you and your happiness." Which is nice.

Or you can pretend to jump from a roof, give a up your whole life for two years, come back to find your world has changed, try to make the person you love as happy as possible, risk your life again … Which is even nicer.

Liberty · October 10, 2016 2:32 pm

To be fair, JP did say "showing" rather than "telling". And I would say the above shows love (which we all agree on!) rather than attraction, if anything.

I've been watching another TV series, and noticed the way they showed this over multiple episodes, and it was interesting how it was very clear (to the viewers) what the agenda was, that there was attraction. There was a "will they, won't they" in terms of whether they would actually get together or not, but not in terms of whether there was attraction. That was up front (without being stated directly), and so I felt on board all along and was following the story.

That's what missing in Sherlock. It's never clear and upfront. I know some of you see it, but the people I know in real life (including me!) don't. We are not "on board". We are not being told a story.

To give an example from the show, I think the fact that Molly fancies Sherlock is very clear and upfront, right from the first episode. I think just about everybody is on board with that. It doesn't needed to be stated explicitly, but I think it does have to be shown in a way that most of us can understand.

Last edited by Liberty (October 10, 2016 3:21 pm)

JP · October 10, 2016 4:21 pm

SusiGo wrote:
You can say "I love you and would gladly give my life for you and your happiness." Which is nice.

This is what Sherlock actually says in HLV. I never said they don't love each other.
You can give your life for your brother, or child, firefighters and soldiers risk their lives for each other every day. The same is true for good friends (although it seems seldom nowadays). Romantic love is not the only way to love another human being. The only ship I see here is friendship. And it saddens me to see it reduced to the level of sexual attraction.

SusiGo · October 10, 2016 4:29 pm

We have been over this more than once. Johnlock is not exclusively about sexual attraction, it never was and it never will be. It is about love, about two people being exclusive, not just in bed. Apart from that, I will never understand why sexual attraction should reduce a friendship. I really do not get why sexuality should be treated as a taint to friendship.

besleybean · October 10, 2016 5:14 pm

It isn't.
And you are right, we discuss these things often.
For me: they are in a loving friendship, no attraction.
It's not better, worse, or anything else...it is what it it is.
I similarly get puzzled that people think two men cannot be in a loving friendship and that it somehow has to be 'more'.
For me, a loving friendship is as good as any other relationship...it's just different.
To me Sherlock and John are shown as flatmates, colleagues and friends.
They share the flat, but not a bedroom.

Last edited by besleybean (October 10, 2016 5:14 pm)

Schmiezi · October 10, 2016 5:25 pm

I think this a lot about where people come from. Sex and intimacy and romance make me happy. As I wish John and Sherlock all the best, I hope they will have plenty of sex and intimacy and romance with each other - on top of their wonderful friendship.

besleybean · October 10, 2016 5:32 pm

Why can't they have it with other people, or with nobody if they asexual?

SusiGo · October 10, 2016 5:36 pm

Because we have seen in HLV that John married and Sherlock alone does not work. Neither of them are happy.

Schmiezi · October 10, 2016 5:37 pm

besleybean wrote:
Why can't they have it with other people, or with nobody if they asexual?

For you, they can. For me, I wish them something else. I feel free to impose my idea of happiness on them. :-)

besleybean · October 10, 2016 5:42 pm

I just see Mary being presented as the love of John's life and if Sherlock was into anyone, it was Irene....the latter isn't my vision.

Liberty · October 10, 2016 5:57 pm

I do know Johnlock is not just about sexual attraction, and I know we've been over this before, but it's the sexual attraction that makes the difference! Because love is included in the friendship.

To go back to the example of Molly, she is friends with Sherlock too, and I'm sure she cares for him as a friend, but I still think it's clear that she also feels (sexual) attraction to him. I don't get that impression, with, say, Lestrade.

I don't think Sherlock is asexual, and I don't think he is nearly as happy being alone as he makes out (hence his thoughts in TAB). But I don't think a "romantic" relationship is necessary, either in real life or in the show. I would be happy for him to be eternally single - or at least until old age.

As for John, I think he would be OK on his own or perpetually playing the field, but I do think that if what we saw in HLV is true (I know it's debated!) he must really love Mary to want her back after everything. (Which doesn't mean I want her to stick around).

I do have a little fantasy about both John and Sherlock retiring to that cottage together!

besleybean · October 10, 2016 6:01 pm

I would love that, but doubt it will happen.

Vhanja · October 11, 2016 4:13 pm

Yes, I don't think anyone disagrees with the notion that Sherlock and John loves each other. I think that has been stated by just about everyone (cast, crew, creators, fans of all kinds of, or no, ships). The question it boils down to is what kind of love we are talking about.

As per now, they are not exclusive. Not as romantic partners and not as friends. But it is true that none of them are happy without the other. Sherlock has learned that alone doesn't protect him, alone is just lonely. And John has learned that marriage, steady job and a house in the suburbs aren't enough for him anymore. And they both have learned that the hard way.

Sherlock and John's friendship are certainly portrayed to be very unique, and perhaps deeper and stronger than most friendships we know about in real life. Would we die for our friend? Give up our entire life for them? Would we be unhappy if we had a lovely marriage, a job and a house, but weren't close with our friend anymore?

I think that is one reason why it's so easy - and so understandable - to interpret their friendship as something more. Because it's not portrayed as a typical friendship. It's portrayed as something more - or deeper - than that. A friendship of such strength that we don't really see that in real life. Not often.

And so, if it contains elements not seen in regular friendships, it's easy to attribute that to a romantic relationship (which to me seems to be the reasoning behind a lot of the questions Liberty answered in this thread).

SusiGo · October 11, 2016 4:33 pm

But where exactly would one draw the line between such a friendship and a romantic relationship (leaving out sex as a criterium for a moment). Where does one end and the other one start? If you are not happy with your wife of four weeks because you have not seen your friend during this time or you start taking drugs and put away your friend's chair because it makes you sad to look at it - well.

They have tried very hard to show us that this constellation - Sherlock alone in 221B and John and Mary somewhere else - does not work. Not even for a single month.

Last edited by SusiGo (October 11, 2016 4:33 pm)

Vhanja · October 11, 2016 4:39 pm

To me, I would draw the line at being romantically exclusive, showing physical tenderness/closeness and - yes - sex. So far, we have seen none of this between Sherlock and John (unfortunately, I would say).