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August 1, 2016 4:15 pm  #161


Re: Season 4 trailer (spoilers!)

Might think differently with a wife and child in tow...
Anyhow, he sadly may lose them this series, anyway.


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August 1, 2016 4:16 pm  #162


Re: Season 4 trailer (spoilers!)

I have a feeling that you're right.  We will see early next year.
 

 

August 1, 2016 4:39 pm  #163


Re: Season 4 trailer (spoilers!)

It might be difficult to prove that he was saving Sherlock's life.  Sherlock was with an unarmed, older, terminally ill man, who was posing no threat to his safety.     It was Sherlock's choice whether he took the pill or not.  So Sherlock couldn't (truthfully) have corroborated it, and he didn't even know it was John at first.  

To be honest, I don't think John really thinks it through, but acts on instinct.    But that just shows that it's possible he would do the same thing at Appledore - and Sherlock, knowing that, made himself the fall guy. 

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August 4, 2016 1:44 pm  #164


Re: Season 4 trailer (spoilers!)

You know what? The one thing about the trailer that makes me really happy is that John appears to be holding a notebook in his hand, in the scene where he sits in his armchair and says "enlighten me". So they still ARE detectives and taking cases, not just running for their lives, 3 x 90 minutes flat.

I mean, I'm not UNhappy about the rest of the trailer at all, but it's SO dark. Downright oppressive. I like a good whump as much as the next fan, but in this case, somehow, I feel that I really don't want any more suffering for either of our boys. Although nobody ever promised that there wouldn't be, of course...

Re: John at Appledore:
I think the big difference between Appledore and the cabbie was that in ASIP, though acting on impulse, John probably also spared a thought for whether he'd get away with it or not. Totally deserted college, no witnesses by except Sherlock and the victim... that would have figured in his calculations, I suppose. Yes, he saved Sherlock there, too (or thought he did), but not in that totally reckless "oh, let me go to hell for this as long as HE's happy" way in which Sherlock shot Magnussen at Appledore, in front of all those witnesses and with no hope whatsoever of getting away, or even of blaming it on self-defense later (as John could have done in ASIP, at least, if Greg had chosen to be less Greg than he is). Because THAT I can only see Sherlock doing, not John. At least at this point in the story. Who knows what the future will bring!


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August 4, 2016 4:37 pm  #165


Re: Season 4 trailer (spoilers!)

Oh yes, I'm sure it would have gone through his mind (and we don't know what he'd have done if he'd been observed).   I'm very hazy on the law here, but I think it allows for self-defence of another person i.e. you could attack somebody to stop them killing somebody else.  But I don't think this would apply to somebody putting themselves in danger the way Sherlock was - not in danger from Jeff, but choosing to risk his life.  Now, it's possible John misinterpreted the situation and it looked like Sherlock was under more threat than he was.   And of course, in the pilot he was heavily drugged and helpless, which was different - but they chose to change that.  

I know Moftiss have said that their view of the original Milverton story is that they (I don't think they specified whether it was Sherlock or John) killed Milverton and John covered it up.  So I think they saw John as capable of killing him, and certainly of covering it up.  Maybe they've switched and had Sherlock kind of covering for John. 

And I agree, I want some cases along with my action and drama, and some mystery and deductions!

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August 4, 2016 5:06 pm  #166


Re: Season 4 trailer (spoilers!)

And friendships and characterization to go with them! =)

Here in America, it is allowed to kill in self-defense and in defense of another, and John was certainly killing Hope in defense of Sherlock, to stop him from killing Sherlock.  I should think that the law allows the same thing in Great Britain.  It's true that at that point, Sherlock was no longer under threat and was merely responding to a challenge from Hope, but John had no way of knowing that.  Had anyone seen him, he could have simply told them that he had killed Hope to save Sherlock's life, and Sherlock would have backed him up.
 

Last edited by kgreen20 (August 4, 2016 5:07 pm)

 

August 4, 2016 5:09 pm  #167


Re: Season 4 trailer (spoilers!)

Sherlock says to John after: we might be able to get a way with a self-defence plea.


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August 4, 2016 5:41 pm  #168


Re: Season 4 trailer (spoilers!)

Yes, well, John was probably pretty sure that Sherlock would collude with him - he trusted him even then.  But still, this with shortly after meeting him.  So I still think it's possible that he could kill somebody to save the lives of his wife and baby, if that was the only option open to him.   And it explains how Sherlock "saved" John, by getting in there first and making such a thing of him being the culprit and John having nothing to do with it.  He lets John off the hook when they're running from the police in TRF too, by pretending John is his hostage.

In my head canon, John doesn't really spend time thinking through whether Sherlock will back up the story.  It's not clear to me how much he can see and how much pressure he thought Sherlock was under, but I suspect that John would have shot Jeff either way.   (He was a serial killer, after all).   And John is so cool about the whole thing afterwards.   There's no worry about having killed somebody, or that the guy wasn't armed and Sherlock was being an idiot.    I personally feel he would kill when necessary.   And I'm not sure that I would have thought about Sherlock before HLV.   Given the situation without knowing the outcome, I'd actually have thought John was the most likely to kill Magnussen, of the two of them.  

(Bearing in mind as well, that John had more at stake - he would have lost his wife and child if he let Magnussen live.  Whereas Sherlock would still have John, even if Mary was killed).

Last edited by Liberty (August 4, 2016 6:20 pm)

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August 5, 2016 6:56 am  #169


Re: Season 4 trailer (spoilers!)

Re: Shooting the cabbie:

In most parts of the western world, the law allows not only for self-defense (or defense of another, as in this case), but there are also provisions for crimes committed in "mistaken self-defense". The legal term varies, but it all comes down to this:

If John THOUGHT he (or a third party, in this case Sherlock) was in immediate danger AND he couldn't 't be blamed for making that mistake, because the circumstances all implied that the danger was real, he'd be let off the hook, too. (That's what Oscar Pistorius tried to claim after shooting his girlfriend dead, that he thought there was a break-in at his house.)

These cases are complicated, though - it needs to be proved that you really couldn't avoid the mistake. Simply claiming that you thought there was a real danger isn't enough. So Sherlock's assessment of the possible legal consequences if John was caught is totally accurate - he'd very likely not be convicted of a crime in the end, but the court case would be complicated indeed and thus better avoided.

Quite apart from the fact that John would hardly have come out of it still in possession of that gun! http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/tongue.png


It's interesting what you say, Liberty, about the pilot vs. the aired episode! The self-defense (or defense of a third party) aspect was much, much stronger in the pilot. There are no moral shades of grey in John's action there. I'm not even sure they realised how different it looks in the aired episode, where John really is saving Sherlock more from himself than from Jeff Hope! If you think about it, that's a lot closer to shooting Magnussen at Appledore, in terms of moral vindication, than I'd like to think! http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/errr.png


As for the original Milverton story - I remember that interview, and I think Moftiss said they thought Holmes did it and Watson covered it up. I prefer that interpretation to Watson doing the killing. Watson is usually the one wielding the gun in ACD's stories (don't you love how Holmes, in "Baskerville", has so little faith in his own marksmanship that he whacks the Hound across the head with the gun instead of shooting it!), but usually he isn't the one who takes the law into his own hands to dispense summary justice like that. He may go along when Holmes does it but he doesn't initiate it. So it would be more IC for Holmes than for Watson, even in ACD's version.

Last edited by La Jolie (August 5, 2016 6:59 am)


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August 5, 2016 7:00 am  #170


Re: Season 4 trailer (spoilers!)

I know...but it's John's gun!


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August 5, 2016 8:10 am  #171


Re: Season 4 trailer (spoilers!)

@ La Jolie, yes, I do think there's a big difference between the pilot and the aired episode.  I get the impression that John didn't even care how much Sherlock was under threat - he only knew his life was at risk and did what was necessary to stop him.  It's not something that John questions afterward  - he's not shocked to find out that Jeff Hope wasn't armed, for instance. 

The Moftiss quote I was thinking about is here http://www.empireonline.com/movies/features/sherlock-series-3-secrets/

Moffat: Also, if you read [The Adventure Of] Charles Augustus Milverton, Dr. Watson in the opening paragraph tells you that he’s about to tell you a porkie. He says, ‘I even now must be very reticent.’ I think what Doyle is hinting at is that Sherlock Holmes and Dr. Watson sat in Baker Street and said, ‘Right, we’re going to have to go and kill him, aren’t we? That’s the only way we can do this.’ So they break in, kill him, and then Dr. Watson writes up a version of the story that puts the murder [on someone else].

So given that they think Watson would sit and plan a murder with Holmes, it's not a leap for me to think that they would see John as doing it on impulse.   He has the extra motivation of knowing that his wife and child will probably die if he doesn't kill Magnussen.   So I think it's quite possible that he would have done it.   Unlike Sherlock, he has "previous" (Jeff Hope), which we have seen.   So I think that maybe Sherlock does it first, saving the three he vowed to protect. 

Last edited by Liberty (August 5, 2016 8:53 am)

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August 5, 2016 8:31 am  #172


Re: Season 4 trailer (spoilers!)

La Jolie wrote:

 (don't you love how Holmes, in "Baskerville", has so little faith in his own marksmanship that he whacks the Hound across the head with the gun instead of shooting it!)

He whacks him only in various movie adaptations, to make the situation more dramatic. But in the book itself, he shoots the dog right away:

But that cry of pain from the hound had blown all our fears to the winds. If he was vulnerable he was mortal, and if we could wound him we could kill him. Never have I seen a man run as Holmes ran that night. I am reckoned fleet of foot, but he outpaced me as much as I outpaced the little professional. In front of us as we flew up the track we heard scream after scream from Sir Henry and the deep roar of the hound. I was in time to see the beast spring upon its victim, hurl him to the ground, and worry at his throat. But the next instant Holmes had emptied five barrels of his revolver into the creature's flank. With a last howl of agony and a vicious snap in the air, it rolled upon its back, four feet pawing furiously, and then fell limp upon its side. I stooped, panting, and pressed my pistol to the dreadful, shimmering head, but it was useless to press the trigger. The giant hound was dead.


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August 5, 2016 9:27 am  #173


Re: Season 4 trailer (spoilers!)

Thanks for clarifying that, nakahara.
Wondered how I'd forgotten that detail!


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August 5, 2016 4:56 pm  #174


Re: Season 4 trailer (spoilers!)

Holmes did whack Killer Evans on the head with his gun in "The Three Garridebs".
 

 

August 5, 2016 4:57 pm  #175


Re: Season 4 trailer (spoilers!)

And would have killed him, if Watson had died.


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September 14, 2016 10:36 am  #176


Re: Season 4 trailer (spoilers!)

Is it known if we'll get another trailer?
Maybe one for s4e1 specifically shortly before it is airing?


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September 14, 2016 11:00 am  #177


Re: Season 4 trailer (spoilers!)

Maybe during Sherlockology Event?

Last edited by nakahara (September 14, 2016 11:01 am)


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September 14, 2016 2:23 pm  #178


Re: Season 4 trailer (spoilers!)

That's what I've been hoping for! I'm dyyyying for it! 


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September 14, 2016 4:52 pm  #179


Re: Season 4 trailer (spoilers!)

When is that?  What is this Sherlockology event, and when will it take place?
 

 

September 14, 2016 4:59 pm  #180


Re: Season 4 trailer (spoilers!)

Are they talking about the Sherlocked Conventions?  There is one of those the weekend of the 23rd in London.  It would be a very good time to release new information about S4.

They are having on in the USA next May in LA which I am desperately trying to get to!  It will be extra exciting I think because we will have the new episodes to discuss. 


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