BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012.
- Schmiezi
- Reichenbach Survivor
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- Registered: August 10, 2012
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Re: Mary – the subject of discussion
But who is the man who "owns" her?
Magnussen? It fits, he is already dead because of his involvement with Mary.
But are there more to share his fate? Does Mycroft "own" her by having her work for him? It would fit with the foreshadowing of his death from TAB.
Does John "own" her by being her husband? Somehow, it feels the other way round for me, but that might be only me.
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I still believe that love conquers all!
"Quick, man, if you love me."
- SusiGo
- The game is never over (moderator)
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- Posts: 22,965
Re: Mary – the subject of discussion
You know what is funny? The chain of pressure goes like that:
Mary (A.G.R.A) - John - Sherlock - Mycroft - Magnussen
So one might say that Magnussen owns A.G.R.A. and is hit by a curse. But look at the others? Is anyone of them happy? One might say that she brings unhappiness and destruction to them all.
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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes
"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)
“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)
- nakahara
- Threatened Knighthood
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- Posts: 11,979
Re: Mary – the subject of discussion
Could it be that CAM is not really speaking about Mary´s real family but about "family", meaning a crime syndicate she formerly belonged to?
Members of such a gang probably wouldn´t be delighted that she abandoned them and started to life her life free of their influence, would they?
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I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?
- besleybean
- Threatened Knighthood
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- Registered: October 4, 2012
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Re: Mary – the subject of discussion
Good point.
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- SusiGo
- The game is never over (moderator)
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Re: Mary – the subject of discussion
Someone on tumblr brought up the idea that Mary threatening Magnussen and shooting Sherlock was caused by her protective motherly instincts. So I had a look at HLV again and you know what is strange?
Not once in the whole episode does she mention the baby of her own accord. Not once. It is all about her fear of losing John.
On the other hand there is John’s “You can’t come. You’re pregnant.” There is John’s “I choose the baby’s name”. There is John’s “No, we’ve had a scan. We’re pretty sure it’s a girl.” Billy Wiggins saying "Won’t affect the little one". And of course Sherlock’s “If you’re looking for baby names.” The one not talking about the baby at all is her mother.
Another thing they could have easily included but chose not to. Wonder why.
Last edited by SusiGo (September 9, 2016 5:40 pm)
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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes
"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)
“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)
- besleybean
- Threatened Knighthood
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- Registered: October 4, 2012
- Posts: 21,342
Re: Mary – the subject of discussion
Another of these scenes we just don't get to see?
The central relationship is Sherlock and John, not the Watson's marriage and family.
That's why I tend to feel the big reveal is done and I assume Mary will be departing in S4.
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- kgreen20
- Consulting Criminal
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- From: Oklahoma, USA
- Registered: July 29, 2015
- Posts: 824
Re: Mary – the subject of discussion
And I think you're right, besleybean. We will find out for sure when Season 4 airs.
Last edited by kgreen20 (September 9, 2016 5:56 pm)
- SusiGo
- The game is never over (moderator)
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- Posts: 22,965
Re: Mary – the subject of discussion
There are quite a lot of things we do not get to see where Mary is concerned: no "I love you" for John, no apology for lying, no mention of her baby …
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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes
"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)
“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)
- besleybean
- Threatened Knighthood
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- Registered: October 4, 2012
- Posts: 21,342
Re: Mary – the subject of discussion
Well I assume John and Mary discuss a lot we don't see.
Some of which we possibly don't need to.
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- SusiGo
- The game is never over (moderator)
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Re: Mary – the subject of discussion
No. They do not discuss anything we do not see. The show is what we see. There is nothing else.
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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes
"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)
“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)
- besleybean
- Threatened Knighthood
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- From: Carnoustie, Angus, Scotland.
- Registered: October 4, 2012
- Posts: 21,342
Re: Mary – the subject of discussion
I know and maybe it's different for other viewers.
But I don't expect a TV programme to show detail of a married couples' life.
Much I can take for granted, especially when it's a detective show and neither of them are the detective!
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- Schmiezi
- Reichenbach Survivor
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- Registered: August 10, 2012
- Posts: 5,478
Re: Mary – the subject of discussion
SusiGo wrote:
No. They do not discuss anything we do not see. The show is what we see. There is nothing else.
I just wanted to write something similar. In this show, every word, every scene is chosen with care. What we do not get to see is as telling as what is shown.
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I still believe that love conquers all!
"Quick, man, if you love me."
- besleybean
- Threatened Knighthood
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- From: Carnoustie, Angus, Scotland.
- Registered: October 4, 2012
- Posts: 21,342
Re: Mary – the subject of discussion
We cross posted!
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- SusiGo
- The game is never over (moderator)
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- Posts: 22,965
Re: Mary – the subject of discussion
Besley: The point is that if such information is necessary to defend a character's actions and you do not get this information, you have to assume as a viewer that it does not happen. And you will draw your conclusions from that.
Exactly, Schmiezi. If one character apologises and the other does not, it is deliberate. If one character talks about his baby and the other does not, it is deliberate. If one character says he loves the other and the other does not, it is deliberate.
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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes
"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)
“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)
- besleybean
- Threatened Knighthood
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- From: Carnoustie, Angus, Scotland.
- Registered: October 4, 2012
- Posts: 21,342
Re: Mary – the subject of discussion
Well obviously on he baby names thing...Sherlock and John were having a private conversation, but John certainly references Mary.
Last edited by besleybean (September 9, 2016 6:18 pm)
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- Liberty
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Re: Mary – the subject of discussion
It's Sherlock who vows to protect the baby (and Mary and John), and that's what we see happen. But I imagine the baby gives Mary even more motivation for wanting to preserve her life as she knows it.
- SusiGo
- The game is never over (moderator)
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- Posts: 22,965
Re: Mary – the subject of discussion
True. But this is exactly what is so strange about Mary: we are constantly assuming. With everyone else we can more or less say why they are behaving in a certain way, what they have done, how they feel. With Mary it always boils down to "I think she protects the baby", "I think she loves John", "I think she is sorry for lying" and so on. But it is never expressed. This is quite frustrating. Or telling.
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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes
"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)
“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)
- Schmiezi
- Reichenbach Survivor
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- From: NRW, Germany
- Registered: August 10, 2012
- Posts: 5,478
Re: Mary – the subject of discussion
It's Sherlock who vows to protect the baby (and Mary and John), and that's what we see happen. But I imagine the baby gives Mary even more motivation for wanting to preserve her life as she knows it.
That's exactly the point: you imagine it gives her more motivation. There is so much that could have been added to the show about Mary, an apology, regret, her mentioning the baby at least once, a simple "I love you" but it was not added. It forces us to imagine and guess.
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I still believe that love conquers all!
"Quick, man, if you love me."
- Liberty
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- Posts: 5,959
Re: Mary – the subject of discussion
Oh, I agree. She's a bit of an enigma.
- besleybean
- Threatened Knighthood
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- Registered: October 4, 2012
- Posts: 21,342
Re: Mary – the subject of discussion
I find the first point a bit odd, I mean how does she not protect the baby and what would she have to do or say to show that she is? For me it's a given for any mother, unless she's shown to be depressed or truly evil.
Loving John: well she's married to him, pregnant by him and reconciled with him...they are indicators to me at least.
Again with the 'sorry for lying'. Well if Mary wasn't, why would she bother staying with John?
Last edited by besleybean (September 9, 2016 6:30 pm)
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