BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Mary

Schmiezi · August 24, 2016 5:58 pm

besleybean wrote:
Same reason Irene said: 'The ice man and the virgin''?

I don't get that. What do you mean?

besleybean · August 24, 2016 5:59 pm

It's affectionate teasing.

Schmiezi · August 24, 2016 6:03 pm

besleybean wrote:
It's affectionate teasing.

I see what you mean. Not agreeing but I understand your point of view. I fail to see affection in both scenes but that probably depends on how you want to see Mary and Irene.

besleybean · August 24, 2016 6:04 pm

It may also depend if you see or hope for Johnlock, too.

Schmiezi · August 24, 2016 6:16 pm

besleybean wrote:
It may also depend if you see or hope for Johnlock, too.

In what way?

besleybean · August 24, 2016 6:18 pm

Depends if you think if you are Johnlocker you may see Mary differently to if you are not.

Schmiezi · August 24, 2016 6:24 pm

besleybean wrote:
Depends if you think if you are Johnlocker you may see Mary differently to if you are not.

In my case no, I was Johnlocker before S3 and against my fears I really liked her in TEH and TSoT. It was shooting Sherlock that did it for me.

I cannot speaking for others of course so maybe there are Johnlockers who dislike her because of Johnlock.

tonnaree · August 24, 2016 6:31 pm

Schmiezi wrote:
besleybean wrote:
Depends if you think if you are Johnlocker you may see Mary differently to if you are not.
In my case no, I was Johnlocker before S3 and against my fears I really liked her in TEH and TSoT. It was shooting Sherlock that did it for me.

I cannot speaking for others of course so maybe there are Johnlockers who dislike her because of Johnlock.

Exactly

besleybean · August 24, 2016 6:32 pm

I agree.

Liberty · August 24, 2016 7:51 pm

If it's the bit I'm thinking of in TAB (maybe I've got the wrong bit?), I think mind palace Mary is highlighting the rivalry between Mycroft and Sherlock. But I agree that there is also banter ... it's a bit like John saying Sherlock is a complete dick.

Mothonthemantel · August 25, 2016 12:15 am

Liberty wrote:
About Mary, above, well she is supposed to be a secret agent, a double agent, who has presumably worked for more than one "employer". Her MO is deceit, in that sense. But in TAB, she doesn't actually betray Sherlock, and helps him solve the case. Mixed messages indeed. As ever, with Mary, I think we need more data.

Depends .Do you think TAB is Sherlock while being exiled to death, is trying to solve a Victorian case about a fake suicide a la Henry Fishguard as the most important thing or , do you think Sherlock while being exiled to death is reading Johns blog and trying to work out how he got here and why( aka a meta on Mary and Moriartys return ) as the most important thing.
I dont think TAB is just a victorian ghost story nodding to canon , but a retelling of everything.

Last edited by Mothonthemantel (August 25, 2016 12:35 am)

RavenMorganLeigh · August 25, 2016 3:18 am

tonnaree wrote:
Schmiezi wrote:
besleybean wrote:
Depends if you think if you are Johnlocker you may see Mary differently to if you are not.
In my case no, I was Johnlocker before S3 and against my fears I really liked her in TEH and TSoT. It was shooting Sherlock that did it for me.

I cannot speaking for others of course so maybe there are Johnlockers who dislike her because of Johnlock.
Exactly

Bingo.

Schmiezi · August 25, 2016 5:37 am

Mothonthemantel wrote:
Liberty wrote:
About Mary, above, well she is supposed to be a secret agent, a double agent, who has presumably worked for more than one "employer". Her MO is deceit, in that sense. But in TAB, she doesn't actually betray Sherlock, and helps him solve the case. Mixed messages indeed. As ever, with Mary, I think we need more data.

Depends .Do you think TAB is Sherlock while being exiled to death, is trying to solve a Victorian case about a fake suicide a la Henry Fishguard as the most important thing or , do you think Sherlock while being exiled to death is reading Johns blog and trying to work out how he got here and why( aka a meta on Mary and Moriartys return ) as the most important thing.
I dont think TAB is just a victorian ghost story nodding to canon , but a retelling of everything.

I think TAB is more than just solving a cold Victorian case. It is a close look into Sherlock's mind. Hence, I believe that almost every line, every scene has a deeper meaning.

If Sherlock imagines the Watson marriage to be far from perfect, then there has to be a reason for that.

And if Sherlock imagines Mary betraying people (Mycroft by telling that she is working for him, the women by leading Sherlock and John to their meeting, John by secretly working for Mycroft) then there has to be a reason for it.

Liberty · August 25, 2016 6:03 am

Yes, I think there is some retelling. For instance, the faked death is more similar to Sherlock's than to Moriarty's as far as we know (he had accomplices, including the pathologist, used a look-a-like body, "died" publicly, and so on).

We've already had Mary betraying John by lying about her occupation in real life, so that's not a revelation (and mind palace John is pretty accepting). Mary betrays the women as Sherlock betrays Janine, I suppose (by faking/infiltrating to uncover secrets and gain entrance), and I suppose it's could be significant that Sherlock sees her as aligning with him rather than Mycroft. It does say a lot about how he sees her. There are hints about the assassin side, but he focuses more on the secret agent side, and I do wonder if he has deduced more than he's told us there. We're still left wondering about her working for Mycroft - is that just Sherlock's subconcious putting two and two together (and agent and somebody who employs agents), or does it reflect real life?

SusiGo · August 25, 2016 7:40 am

We should not forget that Mary does not just lead Sherlock to the women's cult (= helps him solve the mystery), she also leads him to Moriarty symbolising his greatest fears.

Schmiezi · August 25, 2016 7:44 am

SusiGo wrote:
We should not forget that Mary does not just lead Sherlock to the women's cult (= helps him solve the mystery), she also leads him to Moriarty symbolising his greatest fears.

Damn, that's mixed messages again. I mean, did she deliver him to Moriarty or did she give him the chance to overcome his fear with John's help?

SusiGo · August 25, 2016 7:53 am

Do you think she would be that selfless?

Schmiezi · August 25, 2016 7:53 am

Me? Never. But I can see that other people would.

SusiGo · August 25, 2016 7:55 am

Well, this is Sherlock's mind, right? He imagines Mary leading him to the women where he meets his greatest fear and is saved by John (for the first time in SH history). After that Victorian Mary does not appear anymore. There is only Sherlock and John in front of the fireplace. Just saying. I think this might be subtext.

Last edited by SusiGo (August 25, 2016 7:56 am)

Schmiezi · August 25, 2016 8:22 am

I think I love your post.