BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Johnlock: The Official Debate

tonnaree · August 23, 2016 6:00 pm

besleybean wrote:
Unless I see any evidence for the contrary, I believe the reconciliation was just that.
John loves his wife.

Evidence is exactly what I'm hoping for in the next series.

RavenMorganLeigh · August 23, 2016 6:33 pm

Liberty wrote:
What I meant about John forgiving Mary, was just that if he was in love with Sherlock (more than with Mary), and found out that Mary shot him, then I'd expect it to be a lightbulb moment for him. If they were love rivals for him, then I think it would be very difficult for him to accept Mary back, even if he didn't know what the future was with Sherlock. Why would he want to? (I think it needs the motivation of him being in love with Mary, more than with anyone else, for him to consider it). I think different emotions would be involved. If he's in love with Sherlock, Mary shooting would be a revelation, and kind of a metaphor for what's going on in his heart. I think it would highlight who he really loved - and of course, Mary's deception would mean that he had no oligation to stay. And oddly, if he does stay, it means that he continues to deceive Mary. I think he would leave.

I'm not talking about proof for Johnlock or not, but just about how we see the characters.

Agreed.

besleybean · August 23, 2016 6:35 pm

I don't see Sherlock and John are pretending and I don't see why they would...
I do think Mary is forgiven.

RavenMorganLeigh · August 23, 2016 6:36 pm

Schmiezi wrote:
tonnaree wrote:
It makes sense if John does not truly forgive Mary and has ulterior motives for wanting her to think he does.
This is still within the realm of possibility.
This is what I believe / hope in case that it is all real.

This is what I'm hoping for...

GimmeCat · August 23, 2016 8:18 pm

If Mary has any connection to Moriarty, and Sherlock has any suspicion of that, then I think that's absolutely a reason for them to pretend around her while they work out some sort of plan. She's a dangerous assassin who's already killed Sherlock once and was prepared to do it again. She is Not To Be Taken Lightly.

besleybean · August 23, 2016 8:21 pm

I see her as no further threat, I do see her under threat though.
Most of all, I believe she and John love each other.

JP · August 23, 2016 8:35 pm

I am sorry if anyone felt insulted by my Moon-landing conspiracy comparison.

But if you read it once more, you will see that I didn't write about anybody particular, nor I used the term for Johnlockers in general. I was trying to express my frustration over the discussion that is IMO not based on facts but on believes and interpretations and on great extent on wishful thinking < and please don't shoot at me for the last term: this is how I see it.

My wishful thinking BTW is that Sherlock should be officially declared as asexual. And then that people would see love in a friendship as at least equally valuable as romantic love based to great extent on physical attraction. Asexuals need some representation in media too.

Last edited by JP (August 23, 2016 10:42 pm)

besleybean · August 23, 2016 8:37 pm

(Applauds)

Schmiezi · August 23, 2016 9:48 pm

GimmeCat wrote:
If Mary has any connection to Moriarty, and Sherlock has any suspicion of that, then I think that's absolutely a reason for them to pretend around her while they work out some sort of plan. She's a dangerous assassin who's already killed Sherlock once and was prepared to do it again. She is Not To Be Taken Lightly.

Plus, she loves John - her rather selfish version of love, that is, but still. She is willing to kill to keep him, so she surely will not hurt him as long as she believes he loves her too.

RavenMorganLeigh · August 24, 2016 2:04 am

O

JP wrote:
I am sorry if anyone felt insulted by my Moon-landing conspiracy comparison.

But if you read it once more, you will see that I didn't write about anybody particular, nor I used the term for Johnlockers in general. I was trying to express my frustration over the discussion that is IMO not based on facts but on believes and interpretations and on great extent on wishful thinking < and please don't shoot at me for the last term: this is how I see it.

My wishful thinking BTW is that Sherlock should be officially declared as asexual. And then that people would see love in a friendship as at least equally valuable as romantic love based to great extent on physical attraction. Asexuals need some representation in media too.

But, it's not like platonic love between buddies hasn't been explicitly represented in a myriad of ways in literally hundreds of shows and movies, as long as film has existed. Starsky and Hutch, Riggs and Murtaugh, every buddy cop show ever, platonic relationships are OVER represented. Platonic relationships aren't exactly the same as Asexuality, though, not as the new, Tumblr definitions seem to explain it-- and the definition seems to still be evolving...

What is not represented are LGBT relationships, and characters that are the main protagonists as the people in romantic, sexual relationships.

And, by the way, I can't think of even one version of Sherlock Holmes that has him in an overtly romantic and sexual relationship with John Watson. (More's the pity.)

RavenMorganLeigh · August 24, 2016 2:16 am

Schmiezi wrote:
GimmeCat wrote:
If Mary has any connection to Moriarty, and Sherlock has any suspicion of that, then I think that's absolutely a reason for them to pretend around her while they work out some sort of plan. She's a dangerous assassin who's already killed Sherlock once and was prepared to do it again. She is Not To Be Taken Lightly.
Plus, she loves John - her rather selfish version of love, that is, but still. She is willing to kill to keep him, so she surely will not hurt him as long as she believes he loves her too.

I keep thinking of people who have that "if I can't have him, no-one will", kind of thinking. There's a good reason for Sherlock to have urged John to stay with Mary, at least until he came up with a plan to deal with her. Unfortunately, John chose to stay with Mary....

SolarSystem · August 24, 2016 4:34 am

JP wrote:
I am sorry if anyone felt insulted by my Moon-landing conspiracy comparison.

But if you read it once more, you will see that I didn't write about anybody particular, nor I used the term for Johnlockers in general. I was trying to express my frustration over the discussion that is IMO not based on facts but on believes and interpretations and on great extent on wishful thinking < and please don't shoot at me for the last term: this is how I see it.

My wishful thinking BTW is that Sherlock should be officially declared as asexual. And then that people would see love in a friendship as at least equally valuable as romantic love based to great extent on physical attraction. Asexuals need some representation in media too.

Well, I'd say everyone is believing and interpreting. And just because you don't see the facts that Johnlockers are presenting as facts, doesn't mean that Johnlockers are the ones who base their facts on wishful thinking. If you don't see it, fine. But everything you've just said can easily be turned around in so many directions... believing that Mary is the love of John's life is wishful thinking, believing that Mary didn't shoot to kill Sherlock is wishful thinking... you name it.
And if you're frustrated with the discussion, you can always stay away from it.

RavenMorganLeigh · August 24, 2016 4:38 am

SolarSystem wrote:
JP wrote:
I am sorry if anyone felt insulted by my Moon-landing conspiracy comparison.

But if you read it once more, you will see that I didn't write about anybody particular, nor I used the term for Johnlockers in general. I was trying to express my frustration over the discussion that is IMO not based on facts but on believes and interpretations and on great extent on wishful thinking < and please don't shoot at me for the last term: this is how I see it.

My wishful thinking BTW is that Sherlock should be officially declared as asexual. And then that people would see love in a friendship as at least equally valuable as romantic love based to great extent on physical attraction. Asexuals need some representation in media too.
Well, I'd say everyone is believing and interpreting. And just because you don't see the facts that Johnlockers are presenting as facts, doesn't mean that Johnlockers are the ones who base their facts on wishful thinking. If you don't see it, fine. But everything you've just said can easily be turned around in so many directions... believing that Mary is the love of John's life is wishful thinking, believing that Mary didn't shoot to kill Sherlock is wishful thinking... you name it.
And if you're frustrated with the discussion, you can always stay away from it.

Errrrrr--card carrying johnlocker, here. Don't be in such a hurry to cast everybody's thinking in terms of "us" and "them". This is the second time I've been told I should leave the fandom this Week. Hmmmm. Is this a " no dissenting opinions need apply zone"?

Last edited by RavenMorganLeigh (August 24, 2016 4:39 am)

RavenMorganLeigh · August 24, 2016 4:41 am

Errrrrr---- are folks getting actively...hostile, or am I on Crack?

Schmiezi · August 24, 2016 5:00 am

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:
Schmiezi wrote:
GimmeCat wrote:
If Mary has any connection to Moriarty, and Sherlock has any suspicion of that, then I think that's absolutely a reason for them to pretend around her while they work out some sort of plan. She's a dangerous assassin who's already killed Sherlock once and was prepared to do it again. She is Not To Be Taken Lightly.
Plus, she loves John - her rather selfish version of love, that is, but still. She is willing to kill to keep him, so she surely will not hurt him as long as she believes he loves her too.

I keep thinking of people who have that "if I can't have him, no-one will", kind of thinking. There's a good reason for Sherlock to have urged John to stay with Mary, at least until he came up with a plan to deal with her. Unfortunately, John chose to stay with Mary....

But not after being urged to stay with her. After that, he did not talk to her for a long time. He only chose her at Christmas. That does not make sense.

RavenMorganLeigh · August 24, 2016 5:17 am

Schmiezi wrote:
RavenMorganLeigh wrote:
Schmiezi wrote:

Plus, she loves John - her rather selfish version of love, that is, but still. She is willing to kill to keep him, so she surely will not hurt him as long as she believes he loves her too.

I keep thinking of people who have that "if I can't have him, no-one will", kind of thinking. There's a good reason for Sherlock to have urged John to stay with Mary, at least until he came up with a plan to deal with her. Unfortunately, John chose to stay with Mary....
But not after being urged to stay with her. After that, he did not talk to her for a long time. He only chose her at Christmas. That does not make sense.

The problem is-- there is no canonical evidence that John stayed away from Mary-- just that they didn't talk. I suspect that he stayed in the spare bedroom: http://milarvela.tumblr.com/post/114608516778/yes-i-know-that-mark-gatiss-headcanon-from-hlv

Schmiezi · August 24, 2016 5:23 am

That is a good meta, Raven, a very detailed examination of what is said during the reconciliation scene.

Actually, staying with Mary but faking it is a possibility if you follow it. :-)

RavenMorganLeigh · August 24, 2016 5:28 am

Schmiezi wrote:
That is a good meta, Raven, a very detailed examination of what is said during the reconciliation scene.

Actually, staying with Mary but faking it is a possibility if you follow it. :-)

It's definitely the explanation I prefer...

SolarSystem · August 24, 2016 5:28 am

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:
Errrrrr---- are folks getting actively...hostile, or am I on Crack?

Raven, I think this is a complete misunderstanding - and I think you misunderstood my other post, too. I'm not telling anyone to leave 'the fandom'. In my other post I was merely quoting the stuff that repeatedly gets thrown at people who dare to criticize the show - I'm reading those things here in this forum on a regular basis, and my post was meant to be ironic. But maybe irony doesn't really work that well on the internet.
And my post from this morning was an answer to JP - and yes, guilty as charged, for the sake of convenience I was speaking about "Johnlockers" while knowing full well that the one Johnlocker doesn't exist.

besleybean · August 24, 2016 5:35 am

Right, getting back to the topic at hand...well, at least in the sense that the relationship stuff can either prove or disprove Johnlock.
Of course a fake reconciliation is possible...but personally I don't see them going that way, mainly because I don't see the point.