BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Johnlock: The Official Debate

mrshouse · August 22, 2016 5:39 pm

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:
tonnaree wrote:
If there's nothing else we can all agree on it's that Sherlock and John are each the most important thing in the other's lives.
Truth!

Glitter and rainbows!!
*sorry, wrong thread*

mrshouse · August 22, 2016 5:42 pm

Liberty wrote:
But I can see how the problem has arisen with this particular thing - TJLC (The Johnlock Conspiracy), has "conspiracy" right there in the name. It seems to be setting itself up as a conspiracy theory, and proud of the fact! So comparing it to another conspiracy theory, isn't really an insult.

Please, just a little reminder that not every Johnlocker is a TJLC-believer. Personally I just love love love those two idiots together.

Liberty · August 22, 2016 6:23 pm

Oh, I know, but the post I was referring seemed to be talking about TJLC believers, not Johnlockers in general!   So kind of saying that self-proclaimed conspiracy theorists are like conspiracy theorists .

Anyway, I think a lot/most of us ship the characters, in terms of imagination or fanfiction or whatever.   I don't think it's happening in the show either.   I would have been more than happy for it to have happened from the beginning, and it would probably have got me watching the show earlier than I did!

But if they had been secretly "in love" with each other all along, it would change the story and the characters for me.   They would have deceived each other, John would have married somebody whilst in love with somebody else (a rather crappy thing to do. I don't care how much Mary deceived him - this is about John's character and he didn't know that about Mary then.   It's something I think "my" John wouldn't do).

Plus, it would have been so easy to resolve from the beginning! If John really was asking Sherlock out at Angelo's, he could just have said "yes".   Or if Sherlock was asking John out on a date, he could have said yes too! (I think the truth is that neither of them were actually asking that question, and neither of them wanted that sort of that relationship).

SusiGo · August 22, 2016 6:26 pm

But this is not what a slow-burn romance is about, is it? I cannot remember any of the great romances starting on page 1 or during the first minute. As far as I know, it took Mulder and Scully years and years to reach that place.

tonnaree · August 22, 2016 6:42 pm

Liberty wrote:
Oh, I know, but the post I was referring seemed to be talking about TJLC believers, not Johnlockers in general!   So kind of saying that self-proclaimed conspiracy theorists are like conspiracy theorists .

Anyway, I think a lot/most of us ship the characters, in terms of imagination or fanfiction or whatever.   I don't think it's happening in the show either.   I would have been more than happy for it to have happened from the beginning, and it would probably have got me watching the show earlier than I did!

But if they had been secretly "in love" with each other all along, it would change the story and the characters for me.   They would have deceived each other, John would have married somebody whilst in love with somebody else (a rather crappy thing to do. I don't care how much Mary deceived him - this is about John's character and he didn't know that about Mary then.   It's something I think "my" John wouldn't do).

Plus, it would have been so easy to resolve from the beginning! If John really was asking Sherlock out at Angelo's, he could just have said "yes".   Or if Sherlock was asking John out on a date, he could have said yes too! (I think the truth is that neither of them were actually asking that question, and neither of them wanted that sort of that relationship).

But these are things that happen in fiction all day everyday.

SusiGo · August 22, 2016 6:46 pm

Just an example since I am currently watching "Middlemarch". The heroine first marries a man out of reasonable motives but who she does not love. Only after a long time she is able to marry a man who is her romantic and emotional equal. So I do not see why Sherlock and John should start their romance in ep. 1. Where would be the excitement, the development, the heartbreak? Or imagine Rhett Butler dragging Scarlett H'Hara to the altar on page 50.

Last edited by SusiGo (August 22, 2016 6:46 pm)

besleybean · August 22, 2016 6:53 pm

I agree.
But I think the BBC Sherlock team have made it clear this is not the kind of show nor relationship they are writing.

Vhanja · August 22, 2016 7:05 pm

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:
So the answer is, either adore Mofftiss blindly or leave?

No, that is the sarcastic, black-and-white answer for those who don't bother to read what we actually write.

@mrshouse - Yes, I agree, I adore those two idiots together as well.

@SusiGo - I would've loved the idea of a slow-burning romance. I think it would've made one of the best tv romances in years. I just don't see it in the show. Which is unfortunate, because I would've loved to have it there.

Last edited by Vhanja (August 22, 2016 7:06 pm)

Liberty · August 22, 2016 7:07 pm

Well, exactly. They could fall for each other now and that would hopefully fit with their characters as I've seen them - it would be unlikely, but it could happen. But the idea that it's been going on for years - it changes what they are. The same as if, if they weren't in love, it would change how you see the characters, surely? It has some bearing on how they act and the decisions they make.

SusiGo · August 22, 2016 7:13 pm

Of course. I would find some things much harder to understand than I do now. For example restarting one's heart to save someone you love. This is one of the things that do not work for me in a non-romantic relationship at all.

Vhanja · August 22, 2016 7:16 pm

It does for me. Considering who Sherlock is - a man who never had a friend, who wanted to be the cold sosiopath because "caring is not an advantage". And who found the one friend who actually mattered to him, and whom he dared to matter to him.

Of course, in the real world, this probably doesn't work at all. But in the world of BBC Sherlock, it works for me.

RavenMorganLeigh · August 22, 2016 7:26 pm

Liberty wrote:
Oh, I know, but the post I was referring seemed to be talking about TJLC believers, not Johnlockers in general!   So kind of saying that self-proclaimed conspiracy theorists are like conspiracy theorists .

Anyway, I think a lot/most of us ship the characters, in terms of imagination or fanfiction or whatever.   I don't think it's happening in the show either.   I would have been more than happy for it to have happened from the beginning, and it would probably have got me watching the show earlier than I did!

But if they had been secretly "in love" with each other all along, it would change the story and the characters for me.   They would have deceived each other, John would have married somebody whilst in love with somebody else (a rather crappy thing to do. I don't care how much Mary deceived him - this is about John's character and he didn't know that about Mary then.   It's something I think "my" John wouldn't do).

Plus, it would have been so easy to resolve from the beginning! If John really was asking Sherlock out at Angelo's, he could just have said "yes".   Or if Sherlock was asking John out on a date, he could have said yes too! (I think the truth is that neither of them were actually asking that question, and neither of them wanted that sort of that relationship).

Actually, this I totally get, and it's one of my main complaints about John's story arc, in particular. At least in a Johnlock context. It's the taking back the woman who shot his true love thing that doesn't compute.

Last edited by RavenMorganLeigh (August 22, 2016 7:31 pm)

besleybean · August 22, 2016 7:31 pm

Again, I could agree with that...but I personally think the issue was settled by ep 2.

Vhanja · August 22, 2016 7:33 pm

Yeah, I think there are two options for this dilemma:

1. Something we don't know about will happen in S4
2. It's handwaved away by Moftiss as tv reality (which is ok for me, Sherlock has always done that from episode 1 anyway).

RavenMorganLeigh · August 22, 2016 7:38 pm

Vhanja wrote:
Yeah, I think there are two options for this dilemma:

1. Something we don't know about will happen in S4
2. It's handwaved away by Moftiss as tv reality (which is ok for me, Sherlock has always done that from episode 1 anyway).

If it's handwaved away in s4, I'm gonna need some serious therapy!

besleybean · August 22, 2016 7:40 pm

I've never seen any hand waving.
I think this is one of the few points in Sherlock which has actually always been clear, at least since ep 2.
But with hindsight, even in ep 1.

Vhanja · August 22, 2016 7:56 pm

No, I was thinking about the dilemma of John marrying the woman who almost killed his best friend.

besleybean · August 22, 2016 7:57 pm

Oh I see, just with it being this thread...

Vhanja · August 22, 2016 7:58 pm

Yeah, we're jumping all over the place.

besleybean · August 22, 2016 8:01 pm

I was going to protest the 'We', though I suppose many of us got involved in the ' what counts as debate on this forum thing'...worthwhile discussion, nonetheless.