BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Johnlock: The Official Debate

nakahara · August 20, 2016 8:33 pm

SusiGo wrote:
Mothonthemantel wrote:
Your idea that people are all used to seeing things in media and so people see it in Sherlock though may well be correct.
So when was the last time people saw a gay romance on prime time tv?
Maybe people write Sherlock off as a buddy buddy show because that's what they expect to see.
As far as the UK is concerned? "London Spy" probably. Which had its merits but repeated the old gay people as tragic victims trope. So it is about time for a prime time TV show presenting a same sex couple that is allowed a future instead of loneliness of tragic death.

Speaking for German TV: I cannot remember any prime time show focussing on a gay romance? Suggestions anyone?

No Slovak prime time show focused on gay romance, ever. According to our shows, gays don´t exist and never existed and so they logically can´t feature in the action, even as the side-characters.

And I bet it´s like that in most countries. Therefore, if two males or females feature on screen together, people presume them to be buddies or girlfriends only. As a result, most spectators only expect romance if the show features male/female pairing. So culturally we are really not influenced by anything to automatically seek romance if we see same-sex persons on screen, it´s just the opposite - we are expected to automatically see friendship.

nakahara · August 20, 2016 8:37 pm

SusiGo wrote:
This is quite an interesting (and sometimes depressing) video about queerbaiting in popular culture which also addresses Sherlock and its creators:

http://inkfeathers57.tumblr.com/post/149219937244/im-just-gonna-leave-this-here

Good video, thank you for posting.

There´s no smoke without fire. Mofftiss should ask themselves why it is their show that was "singled out" that way and became a symbol of queerbaiting. Hint, hint: it has to do with "gay jokes" both filled their show with....

Mothonthemantel · August 20, 2016 8:38 pm

SusiGo wrote:
This is quite an interesting (and sometimes depressing) video about queerbaiting in popular culture which also addresses Sherlock and its creators:

http://inkfeathers57.tumblr.com/post/149219937244/im-just-gonna-leave-this-here

Yes. It makes me angry also. Though I think more for the American pov and people.

besleybean · August 20, 2016 8:41 pm

Mark and Steven don't have to ask themselves anything.
They have produced(IMHO)the best TV show ever.
Now viewers can see what they like and hold whatever opinions they want.
But they cannot demand the show creators give them anything and I really object to their being accused of anything.

Mothonthemantel · August 20, 2016 8:44 pm

Ands again yes .
Will we ever see a panel in S Korea or Japan. Or another in India maybe.
These countries being the most educated in the world and the most Johnlocky .
The tell does not match the show.

And why should people not shout out johnlock at cons ? Or ask questions about why they see things that way.
Is johnlock or a queer reading of Sherlock to be shoved back into a closet.

besleybean · August 20, 2016 8:47 pm

That's the exact opposite of what I just said.
People can read the show how they want...but they can't get mad at the creators if they say they haven't written it that way.
Plenty of us accept that.

Last edited by besleybean (August 20, 2016 8:47 pm)

nakahara · August 20, 2016 8:50 pm

But they can get mad if they are deliberately played with.

"Oh, you believed that, because we explicitely told you so... it just shows the power of lying."
Johnlock, or not, such behaviour is pretty demeaning....

besleybean · August 20, 2016 8:52 pm

But what of us who don't see 'that behaviour'?

nakahara · August 20, 2016 8:59 pm

besleybean wrote:
But what of us who don't see 'that behaviour'?

I was citing Steven Moffat out there, it was almost the verbatim quote - so he himself admits he has this attitude.

Vhanja · August 20, 2016 8:59 pm

I agree, besley. When you talk about what they tell, what they show, what they deliberately put there... you can't talk about these things as fact written in stone, because a lot of viewers don't interpret them they way you do.

besleybean · August 20, 2016 9:00 pm

But he's not talking about Johnlock.

nakahara · August 20, 2016 9:08 pm

besleybean wrote:
But he's not talking about Johnlock.

I was not talking about Johnlock either. I was speaking about their general attitude - to raise expectations of fans by directly stating anything, then smugly doing something else entirely and laughing at fans that "it shows the power of lying".

Somebody might find the attitude funny, but obviously it causes a lot of bad feelings in other people. And Mofftiss have only themselves to blame for that.

Liberty · August 20, 2016 9:09 pm

Yes, they've been quite clear that they're not lying about Johnlock. "But we’ve explicitly said this is not going to happen – there is no game plan – no matter how much we lie about other things, that this show is going to culminate in Martin and Benedict going off into the sunset together."

Vhanja · August 20, 2016 9:11 pm

nakahara wrote:
I was not talking about Johnlock either. I was speaking about their general attitude - to raise expectations of fans by directly stating anything, then smugly doing something else entirely and laughing at fans that "it shows the power of lying".

Somebody might find the attitude funny, but obviously it causes a lot of bad feelings in other people. And Mofftiss have only themselves to blame for that.

So it's more about just bashing Moftiss in general?

It makes me sad to see posts like this in the fandom.

Sherlock Holmes · August 20, 2016 9:15 pm

Hi Guys.

Just a reminder to be polite and respectful to everyone, regardless of their opinions.

Mothonthemantel · August 20, 2016 9:19 pm

Maybe a joke culture clash. For example in the video Susie links, Moffat says something like - they are not going to stop and discuss orientation in the middle of a crime. ...
Yet that's exactly what happens in the show in Pink when waiting to catch a serial killer , in Scandal when dealing with Irene and in TAB.
So Moffat seems to be joking here ?

nakahara · August 20, 2016 9:19 pm

Vhanja wrote:
nakahara wrote:
I was not talking about Johnlock either. I was speaking about their general attitude - to raise expectations of fans by directly stating anything, then smugly doing something else entirely and laughing at fans that "it shows the power of lying".

Somebody might find the attitude funny, but obviously it causes a lot of bad feelings in other people. And Mofftiss have only themselves to blame for that.
So it's more about just bashing Moftiss in general?

It makes me sad to see posts like this in the fandom.

Pointing out their behaviour - which they never made secret themselves - is bashing?
Are we only supposed to sing praises at them?

Johnlockers are usually blamed for being the only ones who "bash" Mofftiss. But personally I believe Mofftiss infuriate a lot of "general audience" with the same attitude too. Members of general audience who think similarily just tend to get overlooked because they don´t care about discussing their opinions on fan forums like this. If we did proper statistics, maybe we would be actually surprised that Johnlock fans generally belong to the biggest Mofftiss supporters.

Vhanja · August 20, 2016 9:22 pm

I think that what you define as their "general attitude" is such a gross misinterpretation of what they actually said that I don't really know how to reply.

nakahara · August 20, 2016 9:30 pm

Vhanja wrote:
I think that what you define as their "general attitude" is such a gross misinterpretation of what they actually said that I don't really know how to reply.

Here is the quote I was speaking about:

http://constancecream.tumblr.com/post/147954352058/you-expected-tab-to-be-a-stand-alone-because-we

Please, explain to me, where I have misinterpreted it.

Here is the example of a discussion forum of Dr. Who fans, discussing Steven Moffat´s contribution to the show. Some of the opinions are positive, some negative:

https://www.quora.com/Is-Steven-Moffat-ruining-Doctor-Who

Why is it that Dr. Who fans can discuss what they perceive as Steven Moffat flaws in peace, but Sherlockians are immediately accused of bashing?

Vhanja · August 20, 2016 9:43 pm

1. You add some malicious intent, where they are "smug" and "laugh at" fans, which I think is highly unfair and uncalled for.

2. You said yourself that this had nothing to do with Johnlock. So in a thread debating Johnlock you go OT to criticize Moftiss in general. As I've said several times before - it's not always what is said, but how it's said. Of course I think Moftiss can be critisized, but it's one thing not agreeing with everything they've said and done, and a different thing entirely to add maliciousintent and then criticizing them for that.

When I think about this entire debate, I just don't think this is how being a fan should be. If some people don't like the creators, don't like some of the characters, don't like where the story is going, don't like what is being done and what is NOT being done - why not move on to something else? Something that brings you more joy and less frustration? (And that is a general "you").

Sometimes these debates reminds me of the old saying: "I'm the biggest fan there is - no one hates this more than I".

Last edited by Vhanja (August 20, 2016 9:44 pm)