I know I've said it before, but if it was a man and a woman in the same setup - let's say that Sherlock was a woman, and John was gay, or that John was a woman and gay, then no, I wouldn't expect it.   I'd think that if they were going to set up a romance, then they wouldn't make John gay.   Similarly, if they were both men, but John had been set up as gay, then I would be wondering about him fancying Sherlock.   It's not so much to do with gender, but to do with the orientation we're shown and how it's set up as a story.  (I'm leaving Sherlock's sexuality out of it, because I think it's ambiguous, particularly in S1). 

Side note:  I will still argue to the death that Sherlock was not attracted to Irene in a sexual or romantic way.

@tonnarree: Yeah, and I think there is ample evidence for your view, just as it is for mine. I think it's left open, really.

@mrshouse: I think we are all brainwashed in various ways. Or to use a better word - influenced by our society, our background, by media, by our culture in general. Of course we are, no one is an island, and no one forms any kind of opinion without any kind of outside influence. (But I agree - a romance between these two would be so much better than most forced romances in Hollywood!)

Last edited by Vhanja (August 20, 2016 4:55 pm)

Liberty . Sorry I don't quite understand your last post.  Regarding orientation though the idea that Sherlock might be gay is planted in our heads so many times in episode 1 it must be deliberate? They then had John write it in some of the first comments on his blog. The theme is then continued with the date or not a date in 2.
We have to work with what we have in the show which is that orientation is not always relevant. If you can accept that Irene is gay but then attracted to Sherlock then the same must follow for John - attracted to dangerous people Watson.

@Vhanja. I am sure you don't mean to insult people's intelligence or imply we all non stop watch sex films      lol.
For myself I seldom watch romances and usually stick with the thriller/mysteryhorror genre and usually those films follow the two men best friends / partners investigate scenario - which is exactly what I was expecting to see from Sherlock. That's not the Sherlock show we have though is it?
I think BBC bill the show as a drama and show It in the family / pg time slot so there is and was never going to be any chance of anything more sexual than we saw in ASIB.However I do remember the writers and actors promoting the show as a love story and the gayest one ever.

Your idea that people are all used to seeing things in media and so people see it in Sherlock though may well be correct.
So when was the last time people saw a gay romance on prime time tv?
Maybe people write Sherlock off as a buddy buddy show because that's what they expect to see.

Mothonthemantel wrote:

Your idea that people are all used to seeing things in media and so people see it in Sherlock though may well be correct.
So when was the last time people saw a gay romance on prime time tv?
Maybe people write Sherlock off as a buddy buddy show because that's what they expect to see.

As far as the UK is concerned? "London Spy" probably. Which had its merits but repeated the old gay people as tragic victims trope. So it is about time for a prime time TV show presenting a same sex couple that is allowed a future instead of loneliness of tragic death. 

Speaking for German TV: I cannot remember any prime time show focussing on a gay romance? Suggestions anyone?
 

Last edited by SusiGo (August 20, 2016 5:33 pm)

Mothonthemantel wrote:

Liberty . Sorry I don't quite understand your last post. Regarding orientation though the idea that Sherlock might be gay is planted in our heads so many times in episode 1 it must be deliberate? They then had John write it in some of the first comments on his blog. The theme is then continued with the date or not a date in 2.
We have to work with what we have in the show which is that orientation is not always relevant. If you can accept that Irene is gay but then attracted to Sherlock then the same must follow for John - attracted to dangerous people Watson.

He's attracted to dangerous situations and people - that doesn't mean it's sexual for him (it's clearly not - the war, and Mrs Hudson are mentioned as examples!).    Sexual attraction is a more specific attraction (and I know that's confusing, because we use it interchangeably with "attraction") and John appears to be sexually attracted to people who aren't dangerous as well (Sarah, for instance). 

But anyway, I was answering your point about people expecting romance if they were an opposite sex couple.  I'm saying that wouldn't be the automatic assumption if one of them was gay.  (I haven't really watched it, but does everybody assume Will and Grace are going to get together just because they're an opposite sex couple?).   Similarly, they've set up John as straight, so although a same sex attraction is possible, you don't assume it.   

Sherlock is left ambiguous throughout S1 - yes, the suggestion that he might be gay is raised, but never answered.  He says himself that he's married to his work, and doesn't divulge in what direction his interests would lie if he wasn't!  But even if you think of him as gay, Grace in Will and Grace is less ambiguously straight, I believe, so even with that character being clearly attracted to men, people don't tend to assume they're going to get together, just because they are a man and a woman.  

(I do agree that maybe, given no information about orientation, people might be more likely to assume an opposite sex couple are going to get together at the beginning of a show, rather than a same sex couple.   But in this story we do have information, and it's set up to put people off that track, regardless of their sex). 
 

I saw about three minutes of it before becoming so annoyed I had to take a pause. No, I do not for a moment agree at all with people feeling they have a right to be annoyed by the creators of a show because they show doesn't include the romantic pairing that they were "expecting". How many years fans dedicate to a pairing is their own choice and not Mofftis' responsibility at all. Neither are they required to add a gay pairing in Sherlock just because the LGBT community think they should.

It's exactly this kind sense of entitlement that makes me angry - and is why I think the treatment Moftiss is giving is unfair in the extreme. 

Last edited by Vhanja (August 20, 2016 6:36 pm)

Well, I took the time to watch the whole video. And it made me angry as well, just for different reasons. What I find extremely unfair - and I am not just speaking about the Sherlock creators - is to raise certain expectations (and they do, else there would not be so many people expecting such an outcome) and then laugh at people voicing them and ridicule their questions at conventions. If you watched it, you would also have seen that there are different ways of doing this and they also have a positive example in form of the Hannibal creator Bryan Fuller. 

I think the best part of that expectation lies within the fans themselves. There are tons of fans watching the show that don't see Johnlock at all. 

Also, I've never seen or heard Mofftiss neither laugh at or ridicule their fans. Quite the opposite - I've never heard anyone talking about slash fanfic and fanart more respectfully and warmly than Steven Moffat. And everyting I've ever heard any of them say about anything that has to do with gay people or gay representation in media has always been supportive.

But of course, there might be something that I have missed, but I haven't ready or seen anything to indicicate something like that so far.