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August 13, 2016 4:55 pm  #4361


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Oh yes, that could fit, possibly, but there are couple of things that don't quite make sense.   If Magnussen had made a call at that point, Sherlock was facing him and would have known.  Which would mean that for some reason, he was covering for Mary.  Again, that's possible, but it's quite complicated - it means that John has to buy the ambulance explanation (which is very dodgy in itself), and Sherlock has to set up a scenario with the paramedics so that they arrive at just the right time.   And calling the ambulance is part of the reason that John and Sherlock think they are safe with Mary - take that away, and how do they know?  Why is Sherlock so keen to eliminate the threat to Mary rather than the threat from Mary?  Why doesn't he worry about this in his mind palace?  Why doesn't he warn John?   I suppose the only explanation that makes sense in that scenario is that although Sherlock knows the ambulance story isn't true, he doesn't think Mary's a threat, but believes John will think she is without the story - so he makes it up. 

The trouble is, again, that it all hinges on the ambulance story, which is silly in itself.   You still have to believe that an ambulance would take eight minutes, and that's a fact which determines who called it.   But in reality, that isn't a fact.   The most likely explanation is actually that there were paramedics in the area when John made the call, and that eight minutes is an average (it's not as if they'd hang around outside for five minutes if they got there early!).   (In my experience, the paramedics arrive before the ambulance). 

Personally, I see Magnussen reaching for his phone, but don't see him making a call (although it's technically possible).   The post said that Sherlock couldn't have known that it took John five minutes to find him, but the obvious explanation is that he asked John - he would need to have asked John (or the paramedics or whoever) to know how quickly the ambulance got there anyway, and about other details such as Magnussen still being unconscious.

 

August 17, 2016 2:30 pm  #4362


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Two thoughts (that have surely been discussed before):

- It seems that if you call an ambulance after someone else has called an ambulance to the same address, you will be informed accordingly. John believes that he was the one who called first. Had Mary or Magnussen called before, he would have been told. People said that this was British practice, please correct me if I am wrong. 

- It is made very clear that Sherlock had only three seconds of consciousness left. Therefore he cannot possibly have seen or heard anyone calling an ambulance whoever it was. 

And here is something else. Amanda Abbington being very clear about the future of the Watson marriage after her secret has come to light. To quote the Bard: If it be not now, yet it will come, 

http://savedbyholmes.tumblr.com/post/149079811006/quietlyprim-how-many-time-and-in-how-many-ways


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

August 17, 2016 5:55 pm  #4363


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Is she talking about S3 (where we know she believes she'll lose him if her secret comes out), or about S4?  If S4, then it's very exciting!   And presumably means that we are definitely going to find out what the secret is (we're suspecting that we're going to find out more about Mary's past anyway, but still, nice to have that detail confirmed!) ... and that even the reconciliation at Christmas isn't enough for her to believe John will stay with her if he finds out the truth.   (Actually, I'm wondering if this is S3 now - I think it might be from the S3 DVD, in which case, sadly, I think she may be talking about S3 rather than S4.  I'll see if I can dig it out to check).

I think when I've called an ambulance I've just been told that it's on its way ... which is kind of ambiguous, come to think of it.    I don't think it's more of a leap of faith to believe that they just said something like that, than that we would believe that an ambulance arrives in exactly 8 minutes.   If that was the clue we were supposed to see (that John would have been told an ambulance was already dispatched), then I'd be pretty miffed.  Normally what they would do here, is keep the person calling on the line and talk them through resuscitation and emergency care until the paramedics arrive (not necessarily in an ambulance!).

I don't get the impression that he's claiming to have seen or heard an ambulance call.  It's a deduction, I think - he deduces it from the information he's got.  I think it's fairly clear in his mind palace that he hasn't heard anyone call an ambulance. 

(Not really relevant, but I thought I'd add .. in reality, the "eight minutes" is a standard - it's the time by which first responders should get to the most serious cases after dispatch.   Sometimes this will mean paramedics getting there first and an ambulance arriving later.   But they are meant to get there in less than 8 minutes in all cases.  It's not meant to be an average response time, or an expected response time (you'd hope that it was quicker if possible).   To be honest, it looks like somebody did minimal research on this and came up with the 8 minute figure, and used it for the deduction.   Which I'm happy to go along with, as it's fictional, and the characters seem to believe it, but then I wouldn't be happy to be told "You should have known Sherlock is lying because the operator would have told John that somebody else has phoned - but you still have to accept that 8 minutes!")

 

August 17, 2016 6:47 pm  #4364


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

I've checked the S3 extras, and the interview with Amanda is taken from that, sadly!   So no big revelation about S4 or AGRA. 

Here's the full quote (my transcript, so may be wrong), but it seems to me she's talking about her secret identity, which John does find out during HLV.  This fits with what Mary says at Leinster Gardens, before she knows John is there:

"She goes to Magnussen's offices with the intent to kill him. And she's just about to and Sherlock comes in.  She's thought that the secret was buried, but it gets dug up by Magnussen.  She doesn't want to lose John.  And she knows that if this secret ever gets out, she'll lose him"
(Oh, I've been watching the rest again, and Martin confirms that Leinster Gardens is Sherlock "letting John know what her secret is")

and then later on she says

"She doesn't kill him.  She wounds him and then calls the police and ambulance and runs off". 

So pretty much confirmed by Amanda that Mary called the ambulance?

And another key quote:

" ... And she rushes to hospital.  She knows she hasn't killed him". 

So yes, it looks like she meant for him to be alive, despite appearances!


 

Last edited by Liberty (August 17, 2016 6:55 pm)

 

August 17, 2016 6:50 pm  #4365


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

I should say so.
Though personally, I always believed Sherlock, anyway.


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August 17, 2016 6:53 pm  #4366


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

It showed that after S3, Amanda believes that Mary called the ambulance, nothing more.


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I still believe that love conquers all!

     

"Quick, man, if you love me."
 

August 17, 2016 7:24 pm  #4367


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

"She knows she hasn't killed him." - But she only then learns from John that Sherlock pulled through. She did not and could not know before since he was clinically dead. 

I do not see why this should not apply to S4 as well. I am convinced that in the end Mary's past and deeds will come between her and John. Burning evidence and suppressing knowledge is not a solid basis for a happy marriage. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

August 17, 2016 7:43 pm  #4368


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

I really believe that her past is going to catch up with her in one way or another, and that it's going to cost her only her own life, but the baby's life as well.  John is going to be devastated when that happens.
 

 

August 17, 2016 7:46 pm  #4369


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

This has always been my thinking, too.


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

August 17, 2016 8:07 pm  #4370


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

SusiGo wrote:

Burning evidence and suppressing knowledge is not a solid basis for a happy marriage. 

Well said.


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I still believe that love conquers all!

     

"Quick, man, if you love me."
 

August 17, 2016 9:00 pm  #4371


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

But then, if she thinks she has killed him (i.e. tried to kill him, and believed she'd been successful), then why would Amanda say "She knows she hasn't killed him"?  It only really makes sense if she's saying Mary didn't shoot to kill.   And there's no reason to call the ambulance if she planned on him being dead.   It looks as if she really did shoot to incapacitate, but accidentally caused a greater injury than she intended.   I know it's a little bit convoluted, but it gets even more convoluted if you go the other way (she intended to kill, but Amanda thinks she didn't, and Sherlock deduces that she didn't, wrongly because he didn't know that the ambulance operator would have told John that somebody else had phoned, etc. - it ends up going round in circles!   And I initially thought that the fact that he "died" meant she meant to kill him - but then it just doesn't piece together with the other things we're shown).

 

August 18, 2016 5:41 am  #4372


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

We obviously don't even know everything about Mary's past, nor her current status, never mind the future.
It's also great fun to play with various theories.
There have, of course, also been times when we have been given definite clues.
But I think sometimes, we just have to take what we are being shown!
John and Sherlock seem to have forgiven Mary and do not consider her a threat, to them, at least.
Yes in theory Mary did have something to gain if Sherlock died.
She may have even felt in the heat of the moment she wanted to get him out of the way.
But I believe the scene could also follow the Irene scenario...she let sentiment get the better of her.
I certainly think she seems glad now she didn't make the error of taking Sherlock out.
Why on Earth would she want to now, unless she really is working 'for the other side'?


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

August 18, 2016 5:53 am  #4373


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Liberty wrote:

But then, if she thinks she has killed him (i.e. tried to kill him, and believed she'd been successful), then why would Amanda say "She knows she hasn't killed him"?  It only really makes sense if she's saying Mary didn't shoot to kill.   And there's no reason to call the ambulance if she planned on him being dead.   It looks as if she really did shoot to incapacitate, but accidentally caused a greater injury than she intended.   I know it's a little bit convoluted, but it gets even more convoluted if you go the other way (she intended to kill, but Amanda thinks she didn't, and Sherlock deduces that she didn't, wrongly because he didn't know that the ambulance operator would have told John that somebody else had phoned, etc. - it ends up going round in circles!   And I initially thought that the fact that he "died" meant she meant to kill him - but then it just doesn't piece together with the other things we're shown).

Let's keep in mind that before shooting HLV, Amanda had no idea Mary was about to betray Sherlock like that. It is possible that the writers also kept her in the dark about aspects of S4.


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I still believe that love conquers all!

     

"Quick, man, if you love me."
 

August 18, 2016 5:56 am  #4374


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Depends how much more there is to reveal, I suppose.


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

August 18, 2016 6:59 am  #4375


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Yes, when I looked at the original post, I thought it Amanda was talking about S4.   But in fact, she was talking about something that was resolved in S3 (John did find out her secret).   But of course, I'm expecting twists and surprises in S4.

@Besleybean, yes, I do agree that sometimes we have to take what we're being shown.  It doesn't really make sense for Sherlock not to be on Mary's side at this point, given what we've seen.  (I don't mean that you'd expect him to be on her side, but that what he does and says, what John does and says, fit with Sherlock believing Mary is OK). 

 

August 18, 2016 7:20 pm  #4376


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Liberty wrote:

But then, if she thinks she has killed him (i.e. tried to kill him, and believed she'd been successful), then why would Amanda say "She knows she hasn't killed him"?  It only really makes sense if she's saying Mary didn't shoot to kill.  

Her claim is a direct contradiction to the scene we actually see on screen.

Sherlock´s own doctors who are trying to revive him in the hospital don´t know that she didn´t kill him. They believe him dead for a while and are very surprised when he comes back to life. Yet Mary, miles away from the said hospital, knows she didn´t actually hurt him to death.

No, she doesn´t know anything - unless she is a clairvoyant or other such ridiculous thing.

Also, the claims of the crew are seldom very reliable - they often contradict themselves grossly.

Example - the night Sherlock and Irene spend in Karachi.
Benedict Cumberbatch: it was a romantic night and Sherlock and Irene slept together...
Steven Moffat: Irene stripped Sherlock naked, donned on his clothes and left him there alone, humiliated...

Both cannot be the truth, still, both are presented to us with conviction from the people who actually make the show, so... it´s better to ignore them and to actually pay attention to the show itself.

Liberty wrote:

 And there's no reason to call the ambulance if she planned on him being dead.   It looks as if she really did shoot to incapacitate, but accidentally caused a greater injury than she intended.  

You can also call an ambulance to a dead body to pretend you wanted to save the man in question... only in case your presence in the office would be found out.

"Oh, I called him an ambulance, see how I cared! Too bad it was too late...."

Liberty wrote:

 I know it's a little bit convoluted, but it gets even more convoluted if you go the other way (she intended to kill, but Amanda thinks she didn't, and Sherlock deduces that she didn't, wrongly because he didn't know that the ambulance operator would have told John that somebody else had phoned, etc. - it ends up going round in circles!   And I initially thought that the fact that he "died" meant she meant to kill him - but then it just doesn't piece together with the other things we're shown).

It´s not convoluted at all if you simply accept she wanted to kill him. 


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I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

 

August 18, 2016 7:21 pm  #4377


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

So she's a useless assassin, then?
 


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

August 18, 2016 7:33 pm  #4378


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

besleybean wrote:

So she's a useless assassin, then?
 

If she wanted to kill Sherlock, she actually did succeed for a while, which makes her an effective assassin, I guess.


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I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

 

August 18, 2016 7:36 pm  #4379


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Death is usually final.


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

August 18, 2016 7:42 pm  #4380


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

If Sherlock didn´t die, it´s not for her lack of effort to kill him. She gave her damnedest to murder him.


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I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

 

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