I don't know, they were both playing the game...but she lost cos she let sentiment get the better of her.
I guess Sherlock could still have had those feelings but had them hidden...
I know I have to accept what the team say...just doesn't fit my own personal head canon.

tonnaree wrote:

Top and Bottom are simply another way to identify on who is the dominate and who is the submissive in a relationship. 

I think we need to be careful with these kind of assumptions about gay relationships as it can easily lead to problematic stereotypes.

Many gay men do not enjoy or participate in anal sex.
Of those who do, some are exclusively active (i.e. they penetrate), some are exclusively passive (i.e. they receive), whilst some are versatile and enjoy both active and passive anal sex.

The terms top and bottom are not entirely interchangeable with active and passive, as they do include connotations of dominance and submission. Someone who enjoys receiving anal sex (i.e. being f*cked), is not necessarily a submissive person sexually or indeed in their personality in general.

A man can be dominant within a BDSM context and still enjoy receiving anal sex, and vice versa.

Gay men are often stereotyped and an attempt is made to force them into stereotypical gender roles, whereby the passive partner is more 'feminine' and the active partner more 'masculine'.

This can also be rooted in misogyny. Someone who likes receiving anal sex can be perceived by society to be more like a woman and consequently is viewed as "lesser" in some respects. Assumptions are often made that in a gay relationship, the partner who conforms to these more feminine stereotypes is therefore the 'bottom'. That can be due to either one of the following characteristics or a combination of them: they can be younger, shorter, less physically imposing or more effeminate.

So without being too po-faced about it, I do think we need to be careful about making statements such as 'Sherlock is a total bottom'.

It will be interesting to see what will happen at the end of next month at the Sherlocked Convention. With Moffat & Gatiss both in attendance, presumably they will participate in panels and interviews again. I can't imagine the thorny issue of Johnlock won't arise at some point. I wonder how they will tackle it all after the vehemence of their denials in the With An Accent interview.

Yes, I totally agree Liberty. My post was more for the benefit of anyone to whom these terms are new: just for clarification and to try to avoid the perpetuation of sometimes problematic stereotyping.

Personally, I think especially this thread could do with more jokes. I'd prefer that to the rising tension we had here lately.

But that might only be me.

besleybean wrote:

Well I hope there isn't tension between all of us.
Different view points, of course.

Different points of view are important, of course. But I must admit that I felt uncomfortable here lately. That's why I was silent here for a while.

When I stated that Sherlock is a bottom I meant it humorously, but I also just meant it is an accurate description of how I have viewed the character.

Sherlock presents a hard cold surface.  He likes to dominate in any social interaction he has to participate in.  But in those rare moments when he is able to let his guard down he is very soft.  I see in him a need to be vulnerable and let someone else take control.  It is also something I don't think he's ever found, but that he shows signs of trusting John enough to let him.

I intended none of this as a joke or a stereotype.  As a "B" in the LGBTQ community I am all too aware of how it feels to have your sexuality made fun of and the valid points that have been made about devaluing the "feminine."  But we in the community do have a sense of humor.  As a self-proclaimed bottom myself, I did not mean it as an insult to Sherlock.

Last edited by tonnaree (August 8, 2016 2:22 pm)

SusiGo wrote:

Thank you, tonnaree. This is how I would view Sherlock, too. Not necessarily submissive in any BDSM sense but secretly wishing to be the one who can let go, who can leave the control and the being the leader to someone else. IMO this would be John. 

As for the humour - I think some more humour would do this thread quite a lot of good since it tends to get quite tense. Serious discussion and some lightness now and then should not exclude each other. 
 

I have more glitter!  

I agree three 
Underneath all that -Mrs Hudson style sniff - Sherlocks really quite vulnerable to the people he lets close and what they think of him. He was quite paranoid obsessive about Johns blog at first.
I don't think he cares much about anyone else though. For most people he wears the detective hat and as a detective he has to be ruthless.

tonnaree wrote:

When I stated that Sherlock is a bottom I meant it humorously, but I also just meant it is an accurate description of how I have viewed the character.

Sherlock presents a hard cold surface.  He likes to dominate in any social interaction he has to participate in.  But in those rare moments when he is able to let his guard down he is very soft.  I see in him a need to be vulnerable and let someone else take control.  It is also something I don't think he's ever found, but that he shows signs of trusting John enough to let him.

I intended none of this as a joke or a stereotype.  As a "B" in the LGBTQ community I am all too aware of how it feels to have your sexuality made fun of and the valid points that have been made about devaluing the "feminine."  But we in the community do have a sense of humor.  As a self-proclaimed bottom myself, I did not mean it as an insult to Sherlock.

Please don't misunderstand me. I wasn't accusing you or anyone else in this thread of stereotyping. Just someone up thread said that these terms were new and unfamiliar to them so I wanted to give a comprehensive overview of what the different terms usually mean and how they can be misappropriated or used problematically by some sections of society. (No one here I hasten to add!)