I'm not painting any picture...other than a man who really loves his wife.
He found out the horrifying truth about her, he gave it some time, but in the end decided he wanted to stay with her.

Aww, he probably wants a Molly rather than a Mary, then (although she isn't the nicest either, with her face-slapping and her hand-stabbling). 

Anyway, I think John maybe following Sherlock's lead - he absolutely has faith in Sherlock, and if Sherlock thinks Mary's OK, then John can go along with it.   I find it difficult to see a scenario where he's lying to Sherlock and Mary, and plotting against her.   Again, I think he'd only do that in conjunction with Sherlock ... which is something I wondered about, but TAB seems to have set that idea to rest. 

Liberty wrote:

Aww, he probably wants a Molly rather than a Mary, then (although she isn't the nicest either, with her face-slapping and her hand-stabbling). 

Anyway, I think John maybe following Sherlock's lead - he absolutely has faith in Sherlock, and if Sherlock thinks Mary's OK, then John can go along with it.   I find it difficult to see a scenario where he's lying to Sherlock and Mary, and plotting against her.   Again, I think he'd only do that in conjunction with Sherlock ... which is something I wondered about, but TAB seems to have set that idea to rest. 

I would call an intervention if he tried to date Molly, what with the face-slapping and fork-stabbing, and kicking under the table. Controlling, much??? YIKES. 

If John is following Sherlock's lead-- .  Okay. John Watson is a grown man, over 40, has been to war, and is a doctor. He's also known to be stubborn. He was a rather pugnacious character. All of a sudden, he has no will of his own?

Think of John in HLV, immediately going to investigate Sherlock's bedroom, when Sherlock asked him to "stay out of my bedroom". He's unrepentantly cheeky and bullheaded with Mycroft, people try to pressure him to do what they want, and it doesn't work. In TRF, Sherlock sent him off to deal with Mrs.Hudson to get him out of the line of fire, and of course, John just boomeranged back into the line of fire, as soon as he discovered the ruse. Up until HLV's reconciliation, John has never been this soft, acquiescing, mindless follower of Sherlock's. He does follow, but it's because it's what he wants to do. If he didn't want to do it, he wouldn't!

So, if I accept the premise that he's "just following Sherlock's lead", it  doesn't put John in a better light. It means that he's not bothering to reason anything out for himself. 

Schmiezi wrote:

besleybean wrote:

He found out the horrifying truth about her, ...

No, he didn't. He just found out that there is a horrifying truth. Then he burnt the USB stick without finding out what it is.

 
He knew that Mary fatally shot Sherlock, that she'd lied to him from the time they met, and that she would go to prison if what she'd done in her past ever came to light--" isn't that"horrifying truth" enough???

Last edited by RavenMorganLeigh (August 8, 2016 4:53 am)

Exactly.
Which is why some of us were thinking, big reveal enough for Mary, thank you.
But then Victorian Sherlock throws a spanner into his Mind Palace...is Mary working for Mycroft?

Because it's up to John, not me.

I am assuming you mean about his decision?
I feel we are recovering old ground.
But bottom line: he loves her and wants to stay with her.
Sherlock appears to accept her, too.
So I am happy with that.
On the world scale of events, it doesn't really register...
She's Johns wife.
I don't consider her integral to the story...unless there really is something else.

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:

besleybean wrote:

I'm not painting any picture...other than a man who really loves his wife.
He found out the horrifying truth about her, he gave it some time, but in the end decided he wanted to stay with her.

Besley, you just proved my point exactly. I'm going on your premise that John really loves his wife, and decided to stay with her, anyway. 

The problem with that premise is that though John and Mary may behave as though there are NO repercussions or consequences or fallout from this, that doesn't necessarily reflect reality: John has chosen a woman whose name he doesn't know, who was an assassin in her past, who lied to him about her past from day one, who shot Sherlock-- and who possibly worked for Moriarty-- and John chose her, knowing that.

He chose her over his own morals, his loyalty to Sherlock, his loyalty to Queen and Country (perverting the cause of justice, harboring a fugitive, treason against the crown, possibly) 

He chose her over the safety of his own child (who might be used as collateral damage)--

In this case, as much as he loves Mary (over everyone and everything) that might be enough to give Mary a happy ending. Right now, Mary's probably happy. She got everything she wanted. John? He's got to be really conflicted about basically becoming another person! If not, and he's actually happy with his situation, then that really is a different John Watson than the one we saw in s1&2. One who is willfully oblivious, and loyal to the wrong people. 

It may cost him. If Mary worked for Moriarty, there could be some serious complications-- or chickens coming home to roost.

Thank you so much for reminding me of all this.
Apart from the fact that John Watson has been working with Sherlock Holmes for several years and therefore should, on a 'professional' level, be interested in finding out the whole truth about things, I absolutely agree about him being a different John Watson in comparison to the one we got to know in S1 and S2. Yes, he apparently has been looking for someone to spend his life with and we also know that before he met Sherlock he "was so alone" and that after Sherlock's 'death' he probably felt "so alone" all over again. Then he met Mary. He fell in love with her, he married her. And then he found out things about her and decided that he wasn't interested in knowing even more things about her. And I still wonder: why? Because he has forgiven her? Or because he has decided that it's more comfortable to ignore that there may be much more of an uncomfortable truth?
Either way, to me it doesn't really matter what his exact reasoning may have been. If in S4 it turns out that what we have seen in HLV is really all there is to this, then I'm sorry to say that IMO this is not the John Watson anymore I have known in S1 and S2. Yes, people do change and I'm all for character development in a tv show. But this would not be character development, this would be character destruction. In my honoured opinion.

Of course there always is the chance - and I'm really hoping that we will see this in S4 - that the truth about Mary's past will come to the surface anyway. This will give John the chance to react to it accordingly. And I hope he will. 
 

Liberty wrote:

@Raven, by following Sherlock's lead, I don't mean that John is doing whatever Sherlock tells him to do, but simply that he trusts Sherlock's judgment on this.   Despite everything, Sherlock trusts Mary enough to want to her to stay with John, and to leave them alone together when he's sent off to possible death.    That implies that he doesn't think she is evil, or that she's a risk to John.   (Which is kind of backed up by TAB). 

It´s not colour of socks Sherlock is choosing for John here. It´s all John´s intimate life. Why would John follow Sherlock´s lead in this case and trust his judgement? Sherlock has no knowledge of married life and thus any opinion he may offer on the matter is uninformed at best, invalid at worst. It´s incredibly dense of John to trust Sherlock´s judgement on the matter Sherlock has absolutely no experience with.

Liberty wrote:

 And it's fiction.  I know we all know that, but it does alter things ... there's one particular scene that always springs to mind for me, the one where Sherlock keeps throwing the CIA man out of the window.   Now in real life, I think that's beyond the pale - this was a guy doing his job, and Sherlock tortures him, risking death or permanent disability, for no reason other than revenge (for superficial injuries to somebody he cared about).   But I can accept that we're not meant to take the view that Sherlock is an evil torturer who can't be forgiven, and the people around him certainly don't take that view (it doesn't change John's relationship with Sherlock).   I'm very aware that Mary is fictional person in this fictional world where that sort of behaviour is OK, and accepted.  So in this world, is what Mary does forgiveable?  It seems to be, by Sherlock at least. 

If an armed citizen of another state enters your home, beats your old landlady for no reason and then threatens you with a gun - and you overpower him in self-defence and throw him out of the window after that, I wouldn´t find fault with you.

Sherlock obviously acted in strong rage that was a residue from shock he felt when he discovered Mrs. Hudson was taken hostage by those brutes. He was not entirely responsible for himself. (Mary was taken off the hook for shooting because she was "frightened" - so why not forgive Sherlock, too? He was "frightened" either!)

Liberty wrote:

Mary didn't quite solve the case for Sherlock.   What she did was go undercover in a way that Sherlock couldn't have done, and get some crucial information.  But yes, that could translate into S4.  If lives were at stake, it might be very difficult to resist using her expertise.  (Which could be very dangerous if she turns out to be on the wrong side).

She did solve it on her own, laughed and called Sherlock stupid and mad little brother, if I recall it correctly.

We don't really see her do the deductions, though.  We know that she found the conspiracy, and then Sherlock explains faking the death, without Mary apparently telling him anything more.   Of course, Mycroft had already solved it.  (And Sherlock was the one who actually solved, as they are all mind palace extensions of him, but I know we know that!).  I do agree that she was crucial to Sherlock solving it, that he couldn't have done it without her.   If that's the way he sees her, it'll be difficult for him to ignore her abilities in S4.

With the CIA agent, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree about whether this would be acceptable in real life.  I think it isn't, regardless of whether the person feels angry.   I can accept in the show, but I don't see that that has to change my view of it in real life.  But yes, in the context of the fictional universe, if I can forgive Sherlock, I can forgive Mary.   It depends on what she does next. 

I don't think John is taking Sherlock's advise on marriage, but trusting Sherlock's gut instinct and deductions on whether Mary is dangerous and evil or not.    He couldn't have made the deductions himself.    I don't mean that he would stay with Mary if he didn't want to, but if Sherlock had come to a different conclusion and warned him that Mary was dangerous, then I think he'd have paid attention to that too.  Possibly, Sherlock may have put weight on John's judgment of Mary at the beginning too (although I think he likes her independently of John).   They do function as a team sometimes. 
 

Last edited by Liberty (August 8, 2016 8:54 am)