Probably.  But I keep thinking that in canon, we only really saw Mary up until the engagement, whereas in the show, we only really see her after the engagement.   Who knows how far they could go with that?  I think they'll get rid because they've talked so much about it (and also, because I have difficulty seeing it working if she stays), but I know it's a possibility is that the twist is no death (or divorce!).

I know I'm opening a can of worms here, but Mary still intrigues me... It might just be wishful thinking on my part, but when she talks about "But you told me Moriarty was dead?" at the end of HLV, she sounds almost scared. That is, she sounds annoyed, the type of annoyed you get when it's based on fear. 

However, that might be me hearing something that isn't there. But the fact that we in the trailer for S4 see here as an assassin with dark hair, might mean we get to see something from her past?

What I wouldn't like if she was linked to Moriarty, would be that it John would be played for a fool twice. I don't like that. It would portray him as slightly stupid, which is not how I view him. Stubborn and grumpy, yes. But not stupid. And it would be kind of cheesy/bad writing if the twist was the same two times in a row (She was an ASSASIN... ok, everything is forgiven... but she's linked with MORIARTY!).

That would be bad writing in my book. So I conclude that I would prefer her to be written out of the show as a hero, just because it would make John look like less of a fool, and it would be better writing considering where they came from.

Last edited by Vhanja (August 6, 2016 6:55 pm)

SusiGo wrote:

I do not think it would make him look like a fool. He had no way of knowing the snipers who were associated with Moriarty. I do not really care about how Mary is going as long as they do not turn her into a hero.

Yeah, but he trusted her once, despite her lies. If that means she has beein fooling him again and is STILL lying, it will make him look rather silly for trusting her in the first place.

And I'm more in the camp of not caring how she is gong as long as she is gong. (Except for the making John look stupid part).

I would prefer her as a full-blooded female villain, tbh. But I would prefer her to go by redeeming herself to her staying in the show.

I really don't see that happening.

It's going to end with pain for John either way, sad to say, because it won't be only Mary he will lose; he will also lose his baby daughter.  I don't see him killing her either, but someone, I suspect, is going to kill them both.  John's going to lose his whole family, and that's going to be devastating for him.
 

Last edited by kgreen20 (August 6, 2016 8:11 pm)

Yes...unless he's involved in John's anguish.

I read that meta today too, it's fantastic and spells out all the ambiguities wonderfully.

I am reading the meta at the moment and wanted to comment along:

- The part about redemption reflects my own thoughts perfectly. She does not see the need to be redeemed but is forgiven anyway. That's part of what makes me disliked her.

- I love being reminded that everything Mary does, everything that happened and happens to her, is because Moffat decided to write her like that. She could have easily been portrayed less ambiguous, clearly good with flaws, whatever. But she wasn't. On purpose.

- Being reminded of the illogical surface reading of Mary in HLV was interesting either. I agree that hence, the character developement will surely not lead back to Mary being likable and clearly good. There would have been other ways of writing to achieve that. Comparing Mary to Mrs Hudson also backs up that thought.

Thank you for posting that meta, Susi. It gives you lots to think about and deals with the whole matter in a very factual way.

Yes, I suppose it's difficult to write about the character as she's so divisive, and so much is unknown.  It's difficult not to sway to one side or the other.  There are quite a few points in that meta where I feel the writer has already convinced herself of "evil Mary" and is just backing up what she feels.  (I do think it's good and thoughtful, so this is not a criticism.  I agree with a lot of it.  I just feel it's weighted towards one view).   It's more making a case for Mary as villain, rather than trying to weigh up the evidence.   Let's face it, if we try to weigh it up, it's always going to come up inconclusive! 

I do really agree that a lot is unknown, and hopefully S4 will bring some answers.

Edit: I wasn't paying attention and just realised that she has "villain Mary" in her header! So she's open and honest about her take on it, and I feel this post reflects that.

 

Last edited by Liberty (August 7, 2016 3:15 pm)