BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Johnlock: The Official Debate

Liberty · August 4, 2016 10:17 am

Yes, I suppose I'd missed that they're not actually leaving it open any more (or since 2012).   Some of what they've said has been a bit ambiguous, but this one is pretty clear.
"(TPLOSH) deliberately plays with the idea that Holmes might be gay. We've done the same thing - deliberately played with it - although it's clearly not the case"
(To be honest, I wouldn't say it was that clear about Sherlock.   I do think now that we're a few years down the line and he only seems to have fancied a woman it's maybe clearer ... but I suppose the implication was that in 2012, ASIB made it clear?).

"..It doesn't matter how many times you say they're not going to kiss" "they love each other in a way that men can do, but they're not gay for each other".   I suppose they really have been saying it all along. So I can understand the frustration at Mumbai and SDCC, years down the line.

This interview was for Gay Times, and he's also talking (again!) about representation - I don't think he was lying (leaving aside mistranslations, etc.).

Last edited by Liberty (August 4, 2016 10:22 am)

besleybean · August 4, 2016 10:19 am

Seems pretty conclusive to me.

Shani · August 4, 2016 10:26 am

I think that quote "A forest of dirty fiction has arisen. And long may it continue!" is really instructive.

It certainly implies that - at least back in 2012 - Gatiss viewed Johnlock shippers as people whose prime interest in the ship was erotic. (And I think back then that may have been true!) There was certainly far less talk about Johnlock being a matter of representation.

The shift in the fandom from seeing Johnlock as a ship that was primarily for fans, to wanting or believing that it must occur in the show itself has been the biggest sea change. And that has consequently affected Gatiss' attitude I think. It's pretty impossible to imagine him being so light-hearted about it all in a similar interview nowadays.

Last edited by Shani (August 4, 2016 10:33 am)

besleybean · August 4, 2016 10:33 am

That's interesting, because this has always been on my mind...
I assumed from the very beginning, that Johnlockers were seeing the relationship in the show and were just waiting for it to be openly and irrefutably shown.
As( from ep 2) I had decided the boys were not and not going to be in a relationship I got constantly frustrated by the team's not dealing with the question head on and I didn't understand why they didn't...
But your explanation would make sense.
Certainly, for me, from the HLV commentary when Mark says ' and I think that joke is done now'...I could see them moving on.
Yet TAB brought us Andrew's smoldering performance, his Moriarty with Sherlock...
Mark's humour again?

Last edited by besleybean (August 4, 2016 10:33 am)

Liberty · August 4, 2016 10:36 am

I think that's very true. I remember when I first came to this forum, some people said that they didn't really see Johnlock until S3, and then it was obvious. There has been a big shift, that I think quite possibly Moftiss haven't noticed. Perhaps some of that is coming through in their comments about trivialising serious issues - they feel that fans are not only twisting their words, but making the story about "two men together is hot!".

It does seem odd that people have latched on to a couple of men who are not openly shown as gay for representation. It's not what you would expect, so I can understand that Moftiss might not pick up on it.

Shani · August 4, 2016 10:40 am

I don't know. Maybe I got the wrong impression but I seem to remember that in the beginning there was much more of a sense that Johnlock and everything associated with it (ie red pants Monday!) was made by fans for fans. And there was censure and embarrassment from the majority of fandom when any fan transgressed that, and broke the fourth wall by showing artwork or fiction to any of the cast and crew.
That's clearly very different to how things stand nowadays.

As for moving on from the joke, I suppose it depends what Mark meant by that. Did he mean the joke of other characters in the show wrongly assuming John and Sherlock were in a relationship? If he did, then that's kind of true. No one's really done that since Mrs Hudson in TEH as far as I can remember. (Primarily because John has been with Mary ever since!) If he meant cutting out any kind of homoerotic subtext altogether, maybe the flirting with Moriarty is a good sign in that they are not going to be dictated to by outside forces about the way they write their own show!

besleybean · August 4, 2016 10:41 am

Well then they know nothing about fandom.
Though to be fair, that's hardly their fault and certainly shouldn't be their concern.

Last edited by besleybean (August 4, 2016 11:09 am)

Liberty · August 4, 2016 10:54 am

I think they explain what the "gay jokes" are (in that interview, but in others as well). The Moriarty scene doesn't seem to come under that, but I wonder if they were a little bit influenced by the possibly ambiguous line from canon, 'It is a dangerous habit to finger loaded firearms in the pocket of one's dressing-gown.'?

besleybean · August 4, 2016 11:10 am

I do think(one way or another) it's all part of Moriarty trying to intimidate Sherlock, though he does have that playful side to him.

JP · August 4, 2016 8:18 pm

Well, my two cents...
Accidentally, few days before the discussed interview hit the www I watched a vid on YT about "Why JLCT matters" and it was a little eye-opener. Before that I assumed people ship/slash them because they slash literally everything. After seeing the vid I kind of wished for those young people that JL would happen, because it's so important to them. And felt sorry for them too, because I never believed it would happen.

Well, they have to learn a hard lesson: that wishful thinking won't automatically become reality if enough people share it. And that making one's own happiness depending on something so ephemeral as someone's else unfinished story, is directly asking for trouble. (Would any sane person make a life decisions depending on the outcome of the next football match?)
Not that they weren't warned.

I never saw the gay jokes as anything leading in the Johnlock direction. But to me those jokes did something important for the LGBT representation anyway: they took the topic out of the corner of awkwardness and forced political correctness - the lightness of the humor made me think: "finally it's a perfectly normal, everyday thing!" I might imagine the same funny situations happening to a man and a woman who decided to share a flat or go for a dinner, while not being sexual partners.

As for me, I was happy to finally have a nice and engaging story without hormones taking over people's brains being a big part of the story-line. Having such a cool character that actually might be asexual was like a breeze of a fresh air. But I wrote MIGHT. Maybe he is, maybe it's his life philosophy, maybe it will change, because there is no clear evidence so far. This maybe though is enough for me and a part of the show's charm.

The only thing one could blame Mofftiss for, was that they haven't made their position so clear sooner. But I don't think that one could see TJLC developing life of its own on such a scale without closer look at that particular part of the fandom. And this is surely not the makers' responsibility.

PS
Re. the lies: Of course Mofftiss and co lie. They have to. It's the price for letting the fandom practically assist the production. I know it's a great way of advertising and keeping people interested/engaged, but I can hardly even imagine how hard and complicated it is for them to keep us spoiler-free.

besleybean · August 4, 2016 8:27 pm

Yes JP. much in your post chimes with me.
I am sorry, but the first interviews I saw were I am pretty sure after series one and that's when they said: we don't mind if people interpret the leads in a relationship...but we haven't written it that way.
Many of us have been hammering away on here long enough, highlighting other interviews, tweets, commentaries and video clips etc.
Sometimes I was getting back comments like: well I'm not interested in what they have to say...
Unless it was something that could be interpreted as Johnlock of course.
Mark could not have been clearer in his Mumbai interview and yet apparently people would still no take him seriously.
No wonder the team have got frustrated.
Obviously if somebody is going to directly ask them about a major plot line, they will prevaricate.
But for me, they have always been quite clear on the Johnlock situation.
For me, the evidence has not only always been there, but always brought to this forum,for those who wanted to accept it.

Last edited by besleybean (August 4, 2016 8:29 pm)

Vhanja · August 4, 2016 8:38 pm

Good post, JP (and besley), I agree with your thoughts.

I've seen Moftiss mention it at least twice, in the S3-era, about Johnlock fics being great but not happening on the show. I didn't follow the show until after S3 was out, so not sure what they said prior to that. (But from what you say, besley, it seems they've been quite clear on the topic for years).

besleybean · August 4, 2016 8:41 pm

I confess I was unsure about Sherlock himself to begin with.
But as I've previously mentioned, by ep 2, I realised he just didn't do relationships...
Which is why I was thrown into a bit of confusion with Irene!
And who knows, in S 4 are we getting the story of a previous love?
I hope not, but could happen.

Last edited by besleybean (August 4, 2016 8:42 pm)

Liberty · August 4, 2016 8:51 pm

That link I posted a page ago is from over four years ago, stating that Sherlock isn't gay, that they're not "gay for each other" and it's not going to happen. So actually, what they said in the With an Accent interview might seem more forceful, but it's nothing new, nothing different to what they've been saying all along.

They've always called it a "friendship" too, right from the beginning. There was no need to, as the word "relationship" would be fine, unless they were specifically trying to say it was a friendship rather than leave it open.

That's leaving aside what they've actually shown us, which does seem to be a beautiful friendship. (There are lots of things that tell me that, but as an example, there's the fact that Sherlock isn't remotely jealous of John being with Mary, but is acutely jealous when he sees him with his previous "best friend").

We were told, but we didn't listen! (Well, we did really ...)

Vhanja · August 4, 2016 8:54 pm

I actually would prefer to keep Sherlock out of any romantic relationships, including John, than have him meet up with some old romance. I can accept that Johnlock won't happen and still enjoy the show, but in my headcanon Sherlock is gay (even if it's not relevant for the show itself), and so I don't really want to see him with a woman. I would prefer that we didn't see him with anyone.

besleybean · August 4, 2016 8:56 pm

I can mostly agree with that, Vhanja...I don't want to see him with anyone.

Liberty · August 4, 2016 8:59 pm

Besleybean, I agree that Sherlock is very ambiguous at the beginning. He definitely doesn't do relationships, but he could be gay, he could be asexual. I think that after S1 it's confirmed that he's not asexual. And although my view has been that his sexual orientation isn't clear due to the lack of data (the only person he clearly fancies is Irene), I've got to admit that we never see him being attracted to men and Mark has confirmed that he's not gay. If Irene had happened to be male, I'd be well on board with thinking of him as gay, so I wonder if I should maybe just think that he's straight?

I'm sure we'll see. I don't know if they'll show an ex ... I always felt that they'd done that story with Irene, and laid it to rest. But I'm getting the feeling there's more to be said about his repression and choosing to be alone. It might not involve any relationship. I don't know what, but ... "something's coming", I think, in S4.

JP · August 4, 2016 9:25 pm

Well if there was an Ex, it had to be one Mycroft doesn't know about. His snarky remark about sex in the Buckingam Palace was quite clear...

As for the former statements of Mark and co, I'm quite late to the party so I haven't observed the development in the real time. And then I mostly avoided JL area because people taking it over-seriously annoyed the hell out of me - I can't stand folks ignoring facts. :D
Which didn't prevent me from enjoying some funny fanarts or even one or two slash fics.

besleybean · August 4, 2016 9:27 pm

I love Johnlock as fantasy and it's another slash pairing that is my main fantasy!
But for me, the show is about the perfect loving friendship between two gorgeous guys...fab.

Mothonthemantel · August 4, 2016 9:40 pm

Just a reminder that Moffat has also said Sherlock is not asexual that would be boring. Has said Sherlock is not straight. Has said Sherlock is not gay. Has said Sherlock is a sexual volacano.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯