BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Season 4 trailer (spoilers!)

Liberty · July 31, 2016 8:51 pm

It's never twins!

besleybean · July 31, 2016 8:52 pm

Though I really hope it is.

Liberty · July 31, 2016 9:15 pm

Well, he certainly doesn't look happy about it in the trailer.

Mothonthemantel · July 31, 2016 9:39 pm

nakahara wrote:
Mothonthemantel wrote:
If Billy Wiggins was the other one uh , wouldn't that mean mummy called both sons William ?
Well, all three Moriarty brothers were named "James" in the canon... so why not have William Mycroft, William Sherlock and William Sherrinford?

bluebeard redbeard blackbeard ?
The smart one the stupid one and the other one ?

Last edited by Mothonthemantel (July 31, 2016 9:39 pm)

nakahara · July 31, 2016 9:48 pm

Mothonthemantel wrote:
nakahara wrote:
Mothonthemantel wrote:
If Billy Wiggins was the other one uh , wouldn't that mean mummy called both sons William ?
Well, all three Moriarty brothers were named "James" in the canon... so why not have William Mycroft, William Sherlock and William Sherrinford?

bluebeard redbeard blackbeard ?
The smart one the stupid one and the other one ?

Precisely!
You know the game!

besleybean · August 1, 2016 7:33 am

Oh, but wouldn't you like to know them?!

Whisky · August 1, 2016 7:49 am

But Sherlock and family seem to know "what happened to the other one".
Isn't it unlikely then that he kind of disappeared. Also, how old is he?
I find the remark about the other one sounds sinister, and Billy looks a bit too young to have such a history that someone thought it necesary to perform sth not so nice (no compassion) on him.
I mean, only if it wasn't a recent incident, nobody would recognize him. Otherwise Sherlock and Mycroft would know. Sherlock might, but Mycroft doesn't look like he recognizes anything about Bill during Christmas at Mummy's.
Oh but wait... he even was at the family Christmas meeting!

I like that theory. Is there more on it somewhere?

Liberty · August 1, 2016 8:07 am

Did Sherlock know? I've just been going by Mycroft's comment about the "other one" that suggests that he and MI5/6 know, but maybe not anybody else.

I have wondered if Mycroft is somehow in on the plan, but just didn't expect Sherlock to openly shoot Magnussen. The whole setup seems odd. And Mycroft not even knowing that he's been drugged. In fact, I wonder if Mycroft thought that John would shoot Magnussen and almost set him up to do so. It would have been convenient. I'm thinking of the comments about Sherlock saving John by shooting Magnussen - of course, he didn't really save his life as it was Mary who was in danger, not John. But when I first watched it, I initially thought that Sherlock shot Magnussen because he thought that John might if he didn't, and so he saved John in that way. It's clearly an attempt not just to eliminate Magnussen but to make a show of him being the culprit, not John, not both of them. That was my first thought, and the idea of Mycroft setting it up for John to do the deed would fit well with that.

But maybe this is the wrong thread!

besleybean · August 1, 2016 8:09 am

Something I never thought of...

nakahara · August 1, 2016 8:40 am

Liberty wrote:
But when I first watched it, I initially thought that Sherlock shot Magnussen because he thought that John might if he didn't, and so he saved John in that way. It's clearly an attempt not just to eliminate Magnussen but to make a show of him being the culprit, not John, not both of them.

Very intriguing idea and it sounds quite plausible.

Whisky · August 1, 2016 9:12 am

No, I don't believe that. It sounds intriguing, but...
I think that John doesn't know enough of Sherlock plans to act on his own. He let's Sherlock do his job and goes along. Even let's Magnusson humilitate him. I think he would have shot Magnusson if he realised what Sherlock did during that moments on the terace... that he cannot be stopped otherwise, that the whole plan backfired, that they both are in danger of being locked up now. I cannot see John coming to that conclusion though. Until the last moment, he asks Sherlock what his plan is, relies on him, doesn't want to interfere. He wouldn't have shot Magnusson.
Except if Magnusson would have flicked Sherlock's face, maybe. But here, Sherlock had more reason to shoot than John... Magnusson put John in a bonfire, mocks him, hurts him... Sherlock isn't just saving Mary, I think he is tremendously selfish because he is fed up and disgusted with Magnusson, for general but also personal reasons. John never voices that disgust. He didn't know Magnusson and his methods long or well enough, imo, to shoot him.

edited for typos

Last edited by Whisky (August 1, 2016 9:40 am)

Liberty · August 1, 2016 9:19 am

John isn't stupid, though. He knows about Magnussesn's mind palace, and could well come to the conclusion that the only thing to do is to shoot him in the head. He's killed before when Sherlock was at risk, he tends to be impetuous and he's got a gun on him. And Mary is John's pressure point, Magnussen has just threatened to have her killed, and made it clear that he can't be stopped. Shooting him is almost more of a John thing than a Sherlock thing.

I think Sherlock does it to save the three (the episode is called "His Last Vow" after all), but I think this makes more sense about him specifically saving John (because John wasn't really at risk of serious physical harm). Still thinking about it - and also about whether Mycroft might have planned it.

nakahara · August 1, 2016 9:26 am

When magnussen started to flick John´s face, I was half convinced he will provoke John into killing him. I was quite surprised when it didn´t happen.

Whisky · August 1, 2016 9:43 am

I think John kills to save people. But more like face to face.
I think s.o. like Magnusson, he would like to see in prison.
I'm sure though, if Magnusson woukd have threatened and hurt Sherlock physically, instead of John, John would have thought about shooting him. He can be violent if pissed off, after all.

Liberty · August 1, 2016 9:49 am

nakahara wrote:
When magnussen started to flick John´s face, I was half convinced he will provoke John into killing him. I was quite surprised when it didn´t happen.

Maybe Sherlock was worried that he would!
And Sherlock could have shot Magnussen there and then. But he waits until they're surrounded by helicopters, which I think may have been to make sure that John was exonerated.

besleybean · August 1, 2016 10:10 am

I still tend to think that John wouldn't have done it...a life sentence away from his wife and child?
I think not.

kgreen20 · August 1, 2016 4:04 pm

But without witnesses to the shooting (which Sherlock ensures), John would have been under suspicion, and who knows if he would have been able to prove his innocence? This way, Mycroft sees that Sherlock did the shooting, and so do the men he brought with him.

besleybean · August 1, 2016 4:05 pm

Exactly.

Liberty · August 1, 2016 4:13 pm

besleybean wrote:
I still tend to think that John wouldn't have done it...a life sentence away from his wife and child?
I think not.

Maybe not, but the alternative seemed to be risking letting them be killed, so he'd be away from the either way. There was no way out of the situation. He didn't seem to think twice about shooting Jeff Hope, although there was a chance he would be caught.

Last edited by Liberty (August 1, 2016 4:14 pm)

kgreen20 · August 1, 2016 4:14 pm

True. And in regards to Jefferson Hope, he could have told the judge, if it had come to that, that he had killed Hope to save Sherlock's life (which is surely allowed in British law, as it is in American law), which was true, and Sherlock would have corroborated John's account.

Last edited by kgreen20 (August 1, 2016 4:16 pm)