BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Mary

RavenMorganLeigh · July 25, 2016 4:57 pm

SusiGo wrote:
I have the strong feeling we need a Mary thread with a spoiler warning. Or is this just me? I honestly feel that I cannot continue the discussion on the basis of S3 and TAB alone.

Could be...

Schmiezi · July 25, 2016 5:26 pm

I think not looking at the content of the stick is downright stupid. Not knowing what Mary has done means not being able to be prepared to protect her from someone looking for revenge.

tonnaree · July 25, 2016 5:36 pm

*runs through the thread screaming*

TRUST ISSUES!

mrshouse · July 25, 2016 6:07 pm

New discussion about Mary INCLUDING SPOILERS here:
http://sherlock.boardhost.com/viewtopic.php?id=7001

nakahara · July 31, 2016 8:30 pm

Interesting comparison between Irene and Mary:

http://inevitably-johnlocked.tumblr.com/post/148242326809/hello-again-i-find-both-mary-and-irene-to-be

besleybean · July 31, 2016 8:34 pm

I don't think either of them are evil.
I think thy are both misguided.
Irene actively chooses the wrong side.
Mary believes she is ridding the world of no-goods.
Irene is in love with Sherlock, Mary is his friend.
Sherlock ultimately forgives them both.

kgreen20 · July 31, 2016 8:47 pm

Except that Irene co-plotted with Moriarty to blackmail Mycroft in ASIB, and to our knowledge, Mary never blackmailed anybody. Nor did she co-plot with a known evil person such as Moriarty to do such a thing.

besleybean · July 31, 2016 8:48 pm

Quite so.

Liberty · July 31, 2016 8:59 pm

I don't think we know enough about Mary yet to know how evil (or good?) she is. Irene seemed kind of neutral, in that most of what she does is for self-protection in the end. (Including assualting Sherlock, of course. People seem to forget that he's actually threatening her life at that point, by trying to take her phone).

nakahara · July 31, 2016 9:14 pm

kgreen20 wrote:
Except that Irene co-plotted with Moriarty to blackmail Mycroft in ASIB, and to our knowledge, Mary never blackmailed anybody. Nor did she co-plot with a known evil person such as Moriarty to do such a thing.

Yes, but Irene never killed anybody and drugged Sherlock only to have her phone back from him.

Mary actually killed unknown number of persons + bumped Sherlock off randomly when he offered help.

besleybean · July 31, 2016 9:15 pm

Well she obviously failed at bumping him off, which makes me wonder how good an assassin she actually was.

Liberty · July 31, 2016 9:21 pm

Maybe she never bumped anybody off but just induced increasingly rare medical syndromes which made her look as if she meant to. Sherlock's Lazarus syndrome was her piece de resistance.

Which brings me to ... (minor setlock spoilers to follow)

do you think she could be playing a role in the medical theme of Ep2? She's a nurse, after all, and we know there's at least one scary nurse scene?

nakahara · July 31, 2016 9:35 pm

I don´t think she is one of them, but who knows?
But it would make her a bit too omnipresent, IMHO.

RavenMorganLeigh · July 31, 2016 9:39 pm

nakahara wrote:
I don´t think she is one of them, but who knows?
But it would make her a bit too omnipresent, IMHO.

She's already too omnipresent... for my taste, anyway!

nakahara · July 31, 2016 9:51 pm

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:
nakahara wrote:
I don´t think she is one of them, but who knows?
But it would make her a bit too omnipresent, IMHO.
She's already too omnipresent... for my taste, anyway!

Schmiezi · August 1, 2016 5:19 am

kgreen20 wrote:
Except that Irene co-plotted with Moriarty to blackmail Mycroft in ASIB, and to our knowledge, Mary never blackmailed anybody. Nor did she co-plot with a known evil person such as Moriarty to do such a thing.

Drugging Sherlock a lot less bad than shooting him to near death. Blackmailing people is less evil than killing people.

I really think it is intriguing that some people seem to think Mary is a better person than Irene anyway. Why? Is it the wish for John to have a wife that makes you forgive her so easily? Do you feel like you HAVE to like her because she is an integral part of the team now? Or is it something else?

This is not meant as criticism, I just really can't get my head around the reasons.

Last edited by Schmiezi (August 1, 2016 5:50 am)

Liberty · August 1, 2016 7:08 am

Good question. I don't really know ... I think I answered above that I see Irene as neutral, but don't really know enough about Mary to judge yet. Which is interesting, because Irene didn't have a huge amount of screentime and her backstory was completely skimmed over (we never really find out about her past and her motivations), whereas we've seen plenty of Mary over four whole episodes now.

I think it must because of the stories. I feel Irene's story is finished, so I can judge her on the information in ASIB, even though I know I don't have anything like the full story. Whereas, we know Mary's story isn't finished, so it's difficult to judge, even if we've been given a lot of information. I suppose that if the story for some reason had finished at the end of HLV - either that was the end of the whole series, or perhaps Mary had died - I think I would go for neutral with Mary, and take her "story" as being what we see in that episode. She had murky past, she changed her life, she did something terrible, she was forgiven. But I just can't see them leaving her story there in S4.

I do think there are some likeable aspects about her. I know not everybody would agree, but I do like that she aligns herself with Sherlock when he returns. Sherlock has returned from two years of hell, and has just recently been tortured. John is not capable at that time of giving any comfort to Sherlock, understandably. I think Mary does kind of understand (we find out later why!) and is warm towards him.

Schmiezi · August 1, 2016 7:15 am

Yes, she definitely had likable aspects. I liked her a lot before she shot Sherlock. It's only that this, together with the "liar" deduction, made me question the likable personality she shows in TEH and TSoT.

You are right with saying her story is not finished yet. I must admit that I judge her anyway but I admire your neutrality due to the unfinished story arc. :-)

Last edited by Schmiezi (August 1, 2016 7:16 am)

besleybean · August 1, 2016 7:35 am

On the neutrality thing.
Well I just take her for what she is: a plot device!
But I do think she genuinely loves John I mean, how couldn't she?!

Schmiezi · August 1, 2016 7:48 am

besleybean wrote:
On the neutrality thing.
Well I just take her for what she is: a plot device!
But I do think she genuinely loves John I mean, how couldn't she?!

Well, I think her love for John is very selfish. Can selfish love be genuine?