In the above mentioned Tv tropes site, two examples of Mary Sue are particularily valid for BBC Mary, in my opinion:

if you're reading fanfic, it's probably because you're interested in the canon characters and want to hear about them — you didn't download the fic just so you could see the canon characters become props used to demonstrate the awesomeness of some OC in whom you have no stake whatever.

BBC series is a kind of a fanfic of Moftiss, based on the ACD canon. And in this case, Mary really steals time that could be dedicated to canon characters in the actual series.

This viewpoint posits that Mary Sue is a character that involves changing the dynamic of a work and shifting the focus away from the established characters and styles. This may include characters that break the established rules of the setting (particularly if the explanation for it is poor or nonexistant). Often involves rewriting of canon elements and derailing of characters in the process.

Mary in a nutshell, at least for me.

Last edited by nakahara (July 21, 2016 2:26 pm)

There's one point I wonder about: why does it actually matter if it happened in the mind palace? It's Sherlock's deepest soul. What would be the point of whole TAB if it gave us nothing with at least a tiny connection to reality or how the characters are perceived by Sherlock? Mind palace or not, Mary's skills are shown to show us character traits of hers? Or at least the most observing man in the world thinks she is capable of doing those things? Without boundaries in his mind?

I think that's very true, Mrshouse.  I do like to bear in mind that almost all of TAB is Sherlock's imagination, BUT I agree - that should be showing his assessment of the characters, even if it's with embellishments and exaggerations. 

Thanks for the link, Nakahara.   I suppose I'm most familiar with the original idea of a Mary Sue.   But I thought this paragraph was something to bear in mind:

Finally, the advent of the Internet allowed the term to migrate out of the Star Trek community to most fandoms, losing pretty much any real meaning in the process. There are dozens upon dozens of essays that offer interpretations of what the term means, generally basing it off of some usages of it, but none of them are truly comprehensive or accepted. Using the term in most contexts isn't too far off from flame bait, generally provoking the defendant into rants. Much internet backdraft has resulted, especially if the term is applied to a canon character on a popular show.

I certainly don't think anybody here is flame baiting, but I thought it was worth bearing in mind that the word has such negative connotations.  I do agree that Sherlock kind of counts as fanfic!
 

Last edited by Liberty (July 21, 2016 6:00 pm)

Vhanja wrote:

I think my problem is this:

Sherlock is the main character of the show. He is a well known character decades before this show, renown for his intellect and ability of deduction. Only one more intelligent than him is his older brother, the British Government. 

He is every now and then challenged by equally intelligent and sharp antagonists, but (usually) always wins in the end, one way or the other. 

And then, completely out of the blue, all of this is shoved to the sideline by a character that has no backstory, very little to do with her canon counterpart, she is supposed to be a supporting character - but all of a sudden she can sit on a plane and outshine both Sherlock and Mycroft by two minutes on her phone, and everybody in the show just accepts that they are beaten.

It diminished the characters they have spent three season building, in my opinion. Why should we want to watch what Sherlock and Mycroft do if Mary is both cleverer and have more emotional intelligence than they do? 

A very good point Vhanja, which 'proves' to me everything except for the last sequence happening on the plane takes place in Sherlock's mind palace. On a subliminal level Sherlock has possibly already accepted Mary may be an adversary. He just has to accept that rationally as well.

Or at least that is what I do hope will happen in S4. Please let it give us seeing the last of Mary after which we can all turn back to the good fun that was S1 and S2.

nakahara wrote:

In the above mentioned Tv tropes site, two examples of Mary Sue are particularily valid for BBC Mary, in my opinion:

if you're reading fanfic, it's probably because you're interested in the canon characters and want to hear about them — you didn't download the fic just so you could see the canon characters become props used to demonstrate the awesomeness of some OC in whom you have no stake whatever.

BBC series is a kind of a fanfic of Moftiss, based on the ACD canon. And in this case, Mary really steals time that could be dedicated to canon characters in the actual series.

This viewpoint posits that Mary Sue is a character that involves changing the dynamic of a work and shifting the focus away from the established characters and styles. This may include characters that break the established rules of the setting (particularly if the explanation for it is poor or nonexistant). Often involves rewriting of canon elements and derailing of characters in the process.

Mary in a nutshell, at least for me.

Totally!

And, we know that Mofftiss have no qualms about doing a sort of tongue-in-cheek sort of fanservice (sometimes at the expense of the fans) --- I could very easily see them writing Mary as a Mary-Sue, just for irony.
 

I agree with most things except two: I am not sure that the last plane scene is real either. And there is no way back to the good fun of series 1 and 2 (which often was not very funny, btw). They have changed irrevocably which is not a bad thing. But I am sure they cannot and will not turn back the clock. 

dioscureantwins wrote:

Vhanja wrote:

I think my problem is this:

Sherlock is the main character of the show. He is a well known character decades before this show, renown for his intellect and ability of deduction. Only one more intelligent than him is his older brother, the British Government. 

He is every now and then challenged by equally intelligent and sharp antagonists, but (usually) always wins in the end, one way or the other. 

And then, completely out of the blue, all of this is shoved to the sideline by a character that has no backstory, very little to do with her canon counterpart, she is supposed to be a supporting character - but all of a sudden she can sit on a plane and outshine both Sherlock and Mycroft by two minutes on her phone, and everybody in the show just accepts that they are beaten.

It diminished the characters they have spent three season building, in my opinion. Why should we want to watch what Sherlock and Mycroft do if Mary is both cleverer and have more emotional intelligence than they do? 

A very good point Vhanja, which 'proves' to me everything except for the last sequence happening on the plane takes place in Sherlock's mind palace. On a subliminal level Sherlock has possibly already accepted Mary may be an adversary. He just has to accept that rationally as well.

Or at least that is what I do hope will happen in S4. Please let it give us seeing the last of Mary after which we can all turn back to the good fun that was S1 and S2.

That's what I want, too--that we see the last of Mary, I mean.  But that means she's going to have to die, which happened in canon.  And the baby will have to die with her, sad to say, because it would not work in the show for John to raise his daughter as a single father, not if he's going to continue solving crimes with Sherlock.  And with that, I agree that even if John does lose his family and moves back to Baker Street, there can be no turning back the clock for them.
 

Last edited by kgreen20 (July 24, 2016 11:32 pm)

I'm with you on the latter!