Exactly Susi, just because Sherlock says he's a sociopath doesn't mean he is one, and doesn't necessarily mean he believes he is one either. There's plenty of proof that he's not a sociopath.

In the interests of a balanced argument, have we any evidence that Mary is not a psychopath sociopath?

And besley, just because Mary is Sherlock's foil doesn't mean that they can't or won't like each other. Personally I believe that they do like each other. Sherlock thinks Billy Kincaid is the "best man" after all!

I don't really get why Sherlock agrees that everyone John has ever met is a psychopath as it is plainly not true, and if he's not trying to be funny, I don't know what the point of that exchange was.

Last edited by ukaunz (June 18, 2016 12:26 pm)

It just seems weird for Sherlock to agree that "everyone" John has ever met is a psychopath, but I suppose he is not being pedantic and it's clear that John doesn't actually mean "everyone." Although, he does include Mrs Hudson in the conversation when she's obviously not a psychopath!

I agree that on the surface Sherlock and Mary might seem similar, but I don't believe that Sherlock is a sociopath, whereas I do think Mary is one. Or if there is a spectrum, Mary is an extreme case, and Sherlock is at the milder end. Oh, and apparently psychopath and sociopath are the same thing.

Here is the Psychopathy Checklist used to assess the presence of psychopathy in individuals
http://www.clintools.com/victims/resources/assessment/personality/psychopathy_checklist.html

Items in the Hare Psychopathy Checklist  - Revised

                                    Item                                                                 Factor Loading

Glibness/superficial charm                                                                                1

Grandiose sense of self-worth                                                                          1

Need for stimulation/proneness to boredom                                                     2

Pathological lying                                                                                             1

Conning/manipulative                                                                                       1

Lack of remorse or guilt                                                                                  1

Shallow affect                                                                                                 1

Callous/lack of empathy                                                                                  1

Parasitic lifestyle                                                                                              2

Poor behavioral control                                                                                   2

Promiscuous sexual behavior                                                                           -

Early behavior problems                                                                                  2

Lack of realistic, long-term goals                                                                     2

Impulsivity                                                                                                       2

Irresponsibility                                                                                                 2

Failure to accept responsibility for own actions                                                 1

Many short-term marital relationships                                                               -

Juvenile delinquency                                                                                        2

Revocation of conditional release                                                                     2

Criminal versatility                                                                                           - 

Note: A dash indicates the item does not load on either factor.

Do you think Mary possesses a lot of these traits? How does Sherlock score?

Last edited by ukaunz (June 18, 2016 1:02 pm)

As I've said before, I think Sherlock and John use sociopath/psychopath colloquially ( and sometimes interchangeably, so I'll use them that way too (and I'll stick with psychopath for now - although it does make nonsense of the "do your research" comment, but that's silly anyway). 

From the little we know of Mary she appears more psychopathic than Sherlock (but then Sherlock really isn't, at all!).   But I think the real psychopath of the episode is Magnussen.   If anything I think Magnussen is Sherlock's foil (and Moriarty to some extent too) - they give an idea of the kind of person a brilliant mind like Sherlock could be without his humanity and moral compass.   But humanity and morality are very much part of Sherlock ("the most human"), so there's no chance of him being like that.  Mary is much closer to him than those two as far as we know ... and I think a lot of our judgment of her has to come from Sherlock and John because that's what we've got to go on.    I don't think Sherlock would care for and protect her if he really thought she was like Magnussen. 

On your list, Ukaunz, there's very little that we know Mary exhibits.  Actually, it might be easier if I do another post and go through them.  I don't feel we know Mary from the inside but from other people's view of her.  And then, of couirse, other people's view of her is open to interpretation!  (I lean towards Sherlock genuinely caring for Mary, for instance, but there's view I mentioned above that this is an act because he's plotting against her.  If he is, then that would negate anything we learn about her from him, because what he has been "telling" us would be false). 

 

From your post, Ukaunz:

Items in the Hare Psychopathy Checklist - Revised

Item Factor Loading

Glibness/superficial charm 1  
Mary - I don't really see that with her. In fact, she can be rather abrupt and forthright
Sherlock - usually only turns it on "for a case" - it's not his natural way of being.

Grandiose sense of self-worth 1
Mary - I haven't seen this yet.
Sherlock - can be arrogant

Need for stimulation/proneness to boredom 2
Mary  - would probably score highly, but again, it's not quite clear from what we've seen (although Moftiss confirm it in the commentary).
Sherlock - yes, definitely

Pathological lying 1
Mary - not as far as we know.  She lied for a reason (a fake identity), not pathologically
Sherlock - I don't think so.  He often withholds information, but there seems to usually be a "case" reason.

Conning/manipulative 1
Mary - so far, we've only seen her do this when it seems necessary (e.g. manipulating Sherlock and John to go out on a case) and it doesn't seem excessive.   I'm not sure if you'd count threatening as conning/manipulation - it seems too much of a blunt instrument!
Sherlock - does it for cases. 

Lack of remorse or guilt 1
Mary - we don't know, but she appears to feel remorse when she shoots Sherlock (she is truly sorry). 
Sherlock - again we don't see a lot, but it looks like he does feel it (e.g. over lying to John).

Shallow affect 1
Mary - we don't see that at all.
Sherlock - can appear unemotional but definitely isn't.

Callous/lack of empathy 1
Mary - we don't know. 
Sherlock - can act like he lacks empathy, but I think he does feel it. 

Parasitic lifestyle 2
Mary - no evidence of that.
Sherlock - seems self-sufficient.

Poor behavioral control 2
Mary - appears controlled.  I haven't seen this particularly.
Sherlock - occasionally lets loose!  

Promiscuous sexual behavior -
Mary - no evidence, and seems pretty unlikely currently.
Sherlock - pretty much definitely no ("The Virgin").

Early behavior problems 2
Mary - no evidence
Sherlock - no evidence

Lack of realistic, long-term goals 2
Mary  - no evidence.
Sherlock - dismantling Moriarty's network seems to have been a realistic, long-term goal.

Impulsivity 2
Mary - I'm trying to think of particularly impulsive behaviour, but nothing is springing to mind.
Sherlock - occasionally?.

Irresponsibility 2
Mary - again, lack of evidence.  It was probably irresponsible to become an assassin in the first place and to get into a position where her life was in danger, but we don't really know what was behind it.
Sherlock - can act in a way that appears irresponsible

Failure to accept responsibility for own actions 1
Mary - we don't know yet, but she didn't try to wriggle out of being caught - no excuses or denials.
Sherlock - not clear - he did get out of being tried for murder, but that was Mycroft's actions.

Many short-term marital relationships -
Mary - we don't know.
Sherlock - no.

Juvenile delinquency 2
Mary - unknown
Sherlock - unknown, but I suspect not, apart from some drug-taking in teens.

Revocation of conditional release 2
Mary - we don't know
Sherlock - we don't know but unlikely that he was ever in that situation (Mycroft takes drastic action to stop him going to prison).

Criminal versatility -
Mary - very possible, but we don't know for sure.
Sherlock - I suppose his crimes include murder, drug possession, breaking and entering, etc., although he doesn't seem to have been convicted.

Do you think Mary possesses a lot of these traits? How does Sherlock score?

I haven't actually scored them, just said what I think about the factors, but I don't think either score particularly highly, or that Mary scores particularly higher than Sherlock.  As always, the difficulty with Mary is just not knowing. 

Last edited by Liberty (June 18, 2016 7:04 pm)

GimmeCat wrote:

I disagree with a lot of that assessment.

Glibness/superficial charm: Mary: Her surface personality is all about superficial charm. Her real personality, when finally revealed, seems a lot colder.

Grandiose sense of self worth: Mary: "I agree. I am the best thing that's happened to you."

Need for stimulation/proneness to boredom: Mary: "The doctor's wife must be getting bored by now." Apparently she agrees and shows off her crack sharpshooting skills by firing through a mid-air coin.

Conning/Manipulative: Mary: You don't see 'manipulative' in an ex-murderer lying to her husband well into their marriage and then shooting his best friend to keep the lie going, for the reason of "he would leave me if he knew the truth and I'll do anything to stop that happening"?

Lack of remorse or guilt: Mary: I don't see any evidence suggesting she feels "truly sorry" about anything. She seems to think everything is justified. Would need to see an example refuting this.

Callous/Lack of empathy: Mary: "People like him should be killed. That's why there's people like me." also "You won't tell him. You won't tell John." she rather dispassionately threatens to the man she shot as he lies in hospital.

Parasitic lifestyle: Mary: Her entire character arc is based on her attaching to John and not letting go of him at any cost.

Impulsivity: Mary: "You can't come, you're pregnant." "You can't go, I'm pregnant!" (hops into car to visit crack den)

Lack of long term goals: Mary: Her goals consist of "marry John" and "get pregnant" and "kill anyone who prevents this", despite that she obviously must know she'll always be in danger of her past catching up and destroying their lives. When CAM threatened her, her reaction was to go point a gun at his head-- messy and short-term solution to a problem.

Failure to accept responsibility: Mary: I think she knows John very well, knows he won't read the USB drive, and so bypasses having to accept responsibility for anything. Also stick this one under "manipulative".

Criminal versatility: Mary: How can we possibly "not know" this? It's her entire profession! There's things on that USB drive that would put her in prison for life, so she says. Things that John would stop loving her over. And if that wasn't enough, we know she's capable of stealing an identity of a dead person and using it illegally.

BINGO. Spot on. (((((( APPLAUSE!!!!!!))))

I'd like to add that being an Assassin--  that's YEARS of criminal activity that she hasn't suffered any repercussions from. 

Vhanja wrote:

Schmiezi wrote:

He never says "I forgive you." Watch the scene carefully. He says things like "These are prepared words." and the whole "the problems of your past" stuff. But not "I forgive you".

That is the reason why I don't view this scene as a forgiveness scene. I view it as John telling Mary that he has decided to start the process of forgiving her. If he had actually forgiven her, I don't think he would say "I am basically still pissed off with you".

So to me, he is telling her that he is willing to try and start again, and to try and start to forgive her.
 

 
Good point Vhanja, I think you're right. It's more a "reconciliation" scene.

I have a question: do those of you who see Mary's actions and personality in a kinder light see her being an assassin as being more like a Bond style spy? When some of us see dishonesty, manipulation and fraud, are you seeing sort of a DIY witnesses protection program? When some of us see murder and assault, are you seeing, "acted in the line of duty"  and " just following orders", and " unavoidable casualties"?

Sincerely curious here, and it would make a lot of sense as to why we all see her character so differently.

Oh, and as an afterthought: is an assassin a criminal? I ask, because I think that some may have different thoughts on the matter than me.

Last edited by RavenMorganLeigh (June 19, 2016 12:06 am)

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:

Vhanja wrote:

I think calling it excuses it's about the same as me calling some people's views of Sherlock's behaviour as handwaving. It's true to what we feel is happening or what we are seeing, but it doesn't sit well with those who are met with those kind of descriptions. 

For me, as always, it has to do with not using double standard and seeing everything in perspective and what circumstances they happened in. For instance, people talk about remorse. I never saw Sherlock showing any remorse for torturing the cabbie, nor John for shooting him. Yes, Sherlock's world wiew and character has changed since that happened - just as Mary's life and decisions has changed as she left her work as an assassin to start a new, "normal" life.

Also, the fact that the narrative isn't over yet - we simply don't know what will happen with the Mary storyline in the future season. So there are many reasons for me to be on the fence and withhold judgement. Which has little to do with excuse and more to do with perspective, nuances, and awaiting the story to be concluded before I make up my mind - at least for me.

But I certainly don't need any excuse to defend Mary (except what I feel should be fair judgment on all characters) - the sooner she leaves the show, the better, as far as I'm concerned. And I don't even care if she leaves as a hero or a villain, as long as she leaves.

Totally with you on the leaving!!!! :-) 

 I am, too, although, I would much prefer that she not leave as a villain! 

I just wanted to say that I'm writing in the context of not thinking Sherlock is either a psychopath or a sociopath at all.   I think it would be perfectly valid to write a Sherlock that was one, but I don't think this is the case here - in fact, I think Moftiss have made a point of not showing him as one. 

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:

I have a question: do those of you who see Mary's actions and personality in a kinder light see her being an assassin as being more like a Bond style spy? When some of us see dishonesty, manipulation and fraud, are you seeing sort of a DIY witnesses protection program? When some of us see murder and assault, are you seeing, "acted in the line of duty" and " just following orders", and " unavoidable casualties"?

Sincerely curious here, and it would make a lot of sense as to why we all see her character so differently.

Oh, and as an afterthought: is an assassin a criminal? I ask, because I think that some may have different thoughts on the matter than me.

Yes, I think that if they are going to make her a heroine rather than a villain, then this is how her background will be shown, to some extent.   (And I remember the "Callan" comment from the commentary - they seem to be showing her as somebody who is an assassin but not evil).   I don't think she will be shown as just following orders, though - it's implied that she was more independent - which could be either good or bad.   "Freelance" could suggest that she wanted more control over her work, which could lean towards the "good" side if she was choosing targets who she personally felt needed to die, rather than being sent by the CIA.   "That's why there are people like me" suggests that she saw her job as necessary and that she targetted people who were evil and untouchable. 

I made the analogy of the witness protection programme, but it was from the point of view of whether her lying was pathological .... it wouldn't really make sense for somebody to be on that sort of programme and then tell people who they really were.  Pretending to be the new identity would not be a sign of psychiatric problem, but in fact, necessary.   And I think it's similar with Mary's identity change - there would be no point in doing it, unless she was going to pretend to be "Mary Morstan".

An assassin probably is a criminal, but I think it can be complex, because she would be more of a criminal in some areas in than others, depending on which side she's on.   We don't know yet if she was working for Mycroft, for instance.   She might not have been seen as a criminal by the CIA when she was working with them, but had she been arrested they'd probably have let her be treated as a criminal rather than expose the fact that she was working with them, for instance.   (But the question above was about criminal versatility - whether she commits a variety of crimes (theft, sexual assault, etc.) for the hell of it ... I don't think she does, but that the crimes are committed in the line of her planned work). 

I do think they make the point in the series that both Sherlock and John will kill if they deem it necessary .. which does bring them a little closer to Mary's assassin viewpoint, and I do wonder if that means they want to align Mary with them and make her a goodie rather than a baddie. 

I also think the "James Bond" analogy is a good one - we know they are James Bond fans, and James Bond with his licence to kill was effectively an assassin at times (and a secret agent, which it looks like Mary was too).    He's also a kind of fantasy character, and I think that if Mary is going to be a heroine, she'd be this kind of fantasy secret agent.    And in Sherlock's view she seems to be - he imagines her as working for Mycroft and the country.

And sorry, this is turning into a huge essay, but just wanted to add that this isn't necessarily the way I see her, but it's one way to see her that I think is often missed when people are so sure she's being shown as a villain.  I think the hints are there that she might not be - even more than that, I think that especially after TAB we're meant to go into S4 believing that she's aligned with Sherlock and John, even though that rug may be pulled from under us again! 

And thanks for trying to understand that point of view .

Last edited by Liberty (June 19, 2016 7:33 am)

Well, we know that she fears she will go to prison for the rest of her life and that John will stop loving her.

I doubt that he would do so because she did not kill a target.