RavenMorganLeigh wrote:

I see people bring up the cabbie, and talk about how Sherlock and John are the same as Mary, and the point I was trying to make is that the crucial difference is this: Jeff Hope was a serial killer. Sherlock's life was in danger, that's why John shot him. Sherlock tortured (and yes, I hated that scene) Hope for information into who his patron was, who turned out to be Moriarty.

Neither of them shot someone who was supposed to be a dear friend.

Mary had no qualms about it. The concept of loyalty means nothing to her, and if John actually did forgive her, it will be very hard to see him like I did in season one and two.

It's about loyalty and honor . Mary has none.

This.

Thank you for putting it in words once more.

For me, the not so surface reading of the situation is based on John's characterisation since the beginning of the show: John hasn't been portrayed as someone who would throw over his best friend for the woman who shot him. John was considered to be as loyal as it gets.

Unless Mofftiss wanted to make ACD's "betrayal" comment about John's marriage literal?

I really don't like what a "Mary is John's true love and he totally loves her and completely forgives her" reading does to John's character.

Last edited by RavenMorganLeigh (June 18, 2016 7:18 am)

ukaunz wrote:

Here here, Vhanja!

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:

If I trust John and his instincts and decisions, and go by the surface reading that he completely forgave Mary-- then by that logic, I no longer trust him around Sherlock, in fact, I don't want John anywhere near him.
 

 
I'm curious, because I don't see anything under the surface of John's forgiveness of Mary. From what we see and hear, to me it is clear that John has forgiven her and they are moving on, whether we like it or not. I've watched the final scenes of HLV several times and can't come to any other conclusion. What indications are there that he hasn't forgiven her? I'd really like to be able to see it from another perspective.

He never says "I forgive you." Watch the scene carefully. He says things like "These are prepared words." and the whole "the problems of your past" stuff. But not "I forgive you".

We know that Sherlock thinks John is a terrible liar. So giving him prepared words so he won't screw up makes sense. And orcestrating the faked forgiveness so that Mary falls asleep just after John made his little speech also fits. Let her sleep so she has less chance to realize John is lying.

Plus he does look neither relieved nor happy when embracing Mary. He rather looks like he is highly concentrated.

When watching it for the first time I was so sure that John was faking forgiveness that I was totally surprised when I read about people thinking it was honest.

Ukaunz, I was thinking a lot about making this post because the reaction you get here for posts like this usually is "But I don't believe it anyway", and that is very frustrating. But as you really wanted to understand the other point of view, I hope this post helps you a little.

On that point of: but I don't believe it anyway.
Well you could say that about anything: both Johnlock and not-Johnlock, for instance.

Schmiezi wrote:

He never says "I forgive you." Watch the scene carefully. He says things like "These are prepared words." and the whole "the problems of your past" stuff. But not "I forgive you".

We know that Sherlock thinks John is a terrible liar. So giving him prepared words so he won't screw up makes sense. And orcestrating the faked forgiveness so that Mary falls asleep just after John made his little speech also fits. Let her sleep so she has less chance to realize John is lying.

Plus he does look neither relieved nor happy when embracing Mary. He rather looks like he is highly concentrated.

When watching it for the first time I was so sure that John was faking forgiveness that I was totally surprised when I read about people thinking it was honest.

Ukaunz, I was thinking a lot about making this post because the reaction you get here for posts like this usually is "But I don't believe it anyway", and that is very frustrating. But as you really wanted to understand the other point of view, I hope this post helps you a little.

Thank you for sharing your perspective, Schmiezi, I did honestly want to know how other people are viewing this "forgiveness" scene. I went and watched the end of HLV again before replying, keeping this reading in mind. I grant you I am not an expert at reading expressions and body language, and tend to take what people say mostly at face value, so I'm always interested in hearing other interpretations.

I agree that it has been stated on the show that John is a terrible liar, so I am quite prepared to believe that if Sherlock and John were going to pull the wool over Mary's eyes, John would have to have a carefully worded speech ready for the reconciliation scene. I agree that he doesn't actually say that he forgives Mary. But he does say that the problems of Mary's future are his "privilege". Would he choose that word if he didn't mean it? The only other way I can twist it would be perhaps "it will be my privilege to see you brought to justice" which seems to me a bit too vigilante vengeful for John. And for me, it's just the way he says it... "The problems of your past are your business; the problems of your future..." and he pauses and there's real emotion in the next bit, he takes a breath, and almost whispers "... are my privilege." It just doesn't feel vindictive to me.

He also confirms that he didn't read the thumb drive. I don't think he could lie about that. Sure, Sherlock may have read it and told him what was on it. There's that missing couple of months between Sherlock collapsing at Baker Street and the Christmas lunch. Anything could have happened. But Sherlock did tell John "You can trust Mary." I realise the argument for that is that he wants to keep John safe until they can talk without Mary in the room, but we're just not shown anything to indicate this is what happened. I think the writers prefer to give us clues rather than keep us completely in the dark.

John asks "Is Mary Watson good enough for you?" and to me he looks quite relieved when she says it is, and this is when he smiles at her for the first time. His face is serious or perhaps stern throughout most of the conversation, but he has already explained that he is basically still pissed off with her. And it is a serious matter, he hasn't made this decision lightly. I accept that he could be saying this to explain his body language in case Mary is suspicious. He hugs her for quite a long time and Mary can't see his face. I've tried to study his micro expressions, and I have to say, I do read it as relief. Not relief that he got away with tricking her, but relief that they can finally move on now. He doesn't have the hard expression or frown lines that I would expect if it was all an act. Could he really hold her like that if he hated her? They share a long look after the hug, and he looks her right in the eyes. This tells me he means what he has said. And later on the tarmac, his body language doesn't tell me that he is forcing himself to be with her.

I can see your reading as a good argument. I see why people want John to not have really forgiven her, but I just don't feel it in my gut. I'm trying, I really am!

I just haven't seen any indications that they have a secret plan, surely there would be hints, ones that might not be obvious unless you were really looking for them... And I really am looking for them. The conversation between John and Sherlock on the tarmac would be the perfect time to give us clues that there is a plan to deal with Mary, but I was unable to pick any up. Please point them out if you think there are any. Also, if there was a plan, wouldn't Sherlock shooting Magnussen and being put in a solitary confinement cell for a week and then being shipped off to Eastern Europe have blown it all to hell? If John was left in the lurch and stuck with Mary, surely he would have looked more worried when Sherlock was leaving, and more relieved when he came back. Instead, he just looks bemused by the whole thing.

Anyway, this is the Mary thread, not the John thread... are we slightly off topic?

Last edited by ukaunz (June 18, 2016 9:08 am)

Still feels on-topic to me. John's an important part of how we read Mary, after all. She offers so little, herself, that reading him is almost necessary to know anything about her motivations or emotional state. Even then, it doesn't help much. Right now, she feels so... flat, as a character. She genuinely seems like a sociopath (for real, unlike Sherlock who pretends to be), only seeming to care or get upset when something might threaten her own personal goals. And unless they reveal her as Birdy in s4, or else give her some kind of backstory that excuses her extraordinarily manipulative actions so far, I fear she may stay flat.

I can think of a couple of things that seem to indicate it's not a plan (yes, it could still be, but these sway me against it).   I find it hard to believe that the scene at 221B has an "in the know" John.  Sherlock could be knowing and planning (and he seems to be trying to manipulate John), but I think it seems to a genuine reaction from John.   Also, they have had very little time to plan anything.  

At 221B John seems to accept Mary as a client even knowing that she's an assassin.  Which kind of answers the question about John's morality, I think.   This is long before he's forgiven her as his wife.  He and Sherlock go after Magnussen for her (not for Lady Smallwood as sadly they end up being too late). 

John also has a history of accepting people who seem morally dodgy, without knowing much about them - Sherlock.   In fact, ASIP is set up with hints that Sherlock might be a killer himself, but they seem to wash over John (not that he doesn't notice them, but that he trusts his instincts about Sherlock).   Obviously, we know he's backing the right horse there, but he can't know, empirically.   He seems to judge his character well and trust him from the beginning, no matter what Sherlock does.  I could believe that he does the same with Mary - that he feels (rightly or wrongly) that he can trust her.  

I don't think whether John says "I forgive you" is very relevant in that if the prepared words were fake, then he could easily have rehearsed that line too.  

To be honest, I'm not wild about the explanation for the shooting and so on, and I'd like to move on from it.   Whatever way they do that isn't good - the surgery explanation barely works, and attempted murder doesn't work well either.   They've made it canon that Sherlock can almost magically rise from the dead, so they can go back and do just about anything with that event and we'd just have to accept it.   I would be really annoyed if they said that Sherlock's explanation was fake because (for instance) you can't time ambulance arrivals precisely - we know that, but are accepting the idea because the writers are telling us to! (By having paramedics arrive on cue at 221B).  

I do hope that whatever way they go, they don't go on about the clue everybody missed or whatever, because I'm pretty sure from reading these forums that just about every clue must have been picked up at some point! 
 

I agree with everything you've said Liberty (especially the bit about us finding all the possible clues) but to be fair to the other side of the argument: John might be able to say the words as long as they were fairly vague in their meaning, words that gave the impression of forgiveness but were meant to hide how he truly feels. In that case he would be unable to come out and say "I forgive you" because it wasn't true. I'm playing my own devil's advocate here; I think there would be clues you could actually point to if this was the case.

Okay, I am convinced that Mary is written as a sociopath. Check out these articles:

http://www.lifehack.org/298284/10-things-remember-you-love-sociopath

https://datingasociopath.com/sociopath-character-traits/cunning-and-manipulative/i-love-you/

So we're back to the question of why John has apparently forgiven her. According to these articles, it is very easy to fall in love with a sociopath, because they will do anything to be the person you want. So I think he does (misguidedly) love her, and he is incredibly loyal to those he loves. At first John was devastated when he found out that Mary shot Sherlock, and that she is an assassin, but Sherlock has told him that Mary can be trusted, shown that he doesn't hold a grudge against her for shooting him, and has basically pushed them together again. John pretty much does whatever Sherlock tells him to do, so it seems in character to me... John is also said to be addicted to danger and attracted to dangerous people. To me, it seems that Sherlock doesn't think that Mary is a danger to either of them anymore. For the purpose of the story, I think the writers just want us to move on, at least until s4. John has forgiven her because they want Mary to stick around for whatever they have planned next. It's all part of the setup for the next stage. I am confident she won't be around forever, I just hope it's not for much longer.

I agree. Mary is used as a contrast to Sherlock. Her selfishness is set off again and again against his selflessness although there are similarities between them (similar way of thinking, cleverness, ruthlessness, etc.).
And I think John Watson is at the centre of this because both Mary's and Sherlock's feelings focus on him - just in very different ways. Her aim is to keep John at any price, Sherlock's is to keep him happy, no matter at which cost for himself. 
 

Well Sherlock describes himself as a sociopath and apparently he and all of John's friends are psychopaths, too!
But anyway, I don't necessarily see Mary as a contrast to Sherlock.
I remember the team speaking about her character and saying something along the lines of: we played with the idea of how Sherlock would react to John's wife and we thought: what if it turned out they really like each other and got along.