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June 13, 2016 6:17 am  #4061


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

I wonder about that too.


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I still believe that love conquers all!

     

"Quick, man, if you love me."
 

June 13, 2016 6:19 am  #4062


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

The other thing is(well apart from her freelance stuff), if she was a James Bond type agent...it was just her work, a bit like a soldier.


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June 13, 2016 6:24 am  #4063


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

It could be as simple as an apology scene not fitting well into the episode.   I agree, definitely, that it feels we get very, very little from Mary's side - it's even Sherlock who explains her past, and she has it on a memory stick rather than telling us.   But I'm not even sure how she could apologise.  It's not a little slip up, it's her whole identity, and she couldn't really have told John from the beginning, so it's not as if she could truly regret not doing so.

 

June 13, 2016 1:09 pm  #4064


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

besleybean wrote:

The other thing is(well apart from her freelance stuff), if she was a James Bond type agent...it was just her work, a bit like a soldier.

I feel pretty deeply that we should not compare an assassin for hire to a soldier.  In my view there is a huge moral difference.


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Proud President and Founder of the OSAJ.  
Honorary German  
"Anyone who takes himself too seriously always runs the risk of looking ridiculous; anyone who can consistently laugh at himself does not".
 -Vaclav Havel 
"Life is full of wonder, Love is never wrong."   Melissa Ethridge

I ship it harder than Mrs. Hudson.
    
 
 

June 13, 2016 1:22 pm  #4065


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

tonnaree wrote:

besleybean wrote:

The other thing is(well apart from her freelance stuff), if she was a James Bond type agent...it was just her work, a bit like a soldier.

I feel pretty deeply that we should not compare an assassin for hire to a soldier.  In my view there is a huge moral difference.

Yes, first and foremost, a soldier acts dressed in a distinct uniform and he is bound to start fighting after the formal declaration of war to an enemy. If he commits atrocities, he might get sued in accordance with the rules of international law and declarations of human rights.

Incomparable with the base assassin who kills anonymously, cowardly, with no declaration of enmity to his/her victim and in secrecy so as to escape punishment...
 


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I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

 

June 13, 2016 3:35 pm  #4066


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

But that's what they do...many of our governments employ them or certainly have in the past.


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June 13, 2016 3:38 pm  #4067


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

besleybean wrote:

But that's what they do...many of our governments employ them or certainly have in the past.

Noted.  Governments do use assassins.  The point is there's a  HUGE difference between an assassin and a soldier.
 


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Proud President and Founder of the OSAJ.  
Honorary German  
"Anyone who takes himself too seriously always runs the risk of looking ridiculous; anyone who can consistently laugh at himself does not".
 -Vaclav Havel 
"Life is full of wonder, Love is never wrong."   Melissa Ethridge

I ship it harder than Mrs. Hudson.
    
 
 

June 13, 2016 6:40 pm  #4068


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Well, that's John's call.


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June 13, 2016 6:47 pm  #4069


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

This all depends on how you view it. You could also say that a soldier kills random people that he doesn't have any personel quarrels with, nor have they done anything wrong, because someone at the top has told him that they are his enemies. (Or you could say that the people on the top of either side have a quarrel with each other, and they use soldiers to fight their battles for them).

Not saying that being an assassin is "better", just that you can argue for and against either way.

As for getting very little from Mary herself - that is true. I wonder if it may tie into the fact that Sherlock is always the main focus of the story. Even in the one episode dedicated to John and Mary's wedding, we didn't get to see the wedding itself nor did we get to see one single romantic moment between the bride and groom. Everything was focused on Sherlock, his relationship with John and how the wedding affected him. 

Same thing here. It seems that the focus is how Mary's behavior affect John and Sherlock, and that Sherlock quickly becomes the focus point - he (and John) are the ones affected, and he is the one explaining both to John and the audience the why's and how's. 

It seems that Moftis never lets us forget that this is mainly Sherlock's show, and whatever happens to the characters around him are seen either through him or how it affects him. Not saying there's necessarily anything wrong with that, but it might help explain why there is so little from Mary herself. She played but a small bi-role in her own wedding, and so she does the same in her big reveal. 

Last edited by Vhanja (June 13, 2016 7:02 pm)


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"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings


Team Hudders!
 
 

June 13, 2016 6:55 pm  #4070


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Good point, Vhanja.

 

June 13, 2016 8:15 pm  #4071


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Definitely a good point. It has been used by TJLC as well, if I remember correctly.


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I still believe that love conquers all!

     

"Quick, man, if you love me."
 

June 14, 2016 7:50 pm  #4072


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Seems wrong to me to compare secret agents ,soldiers ,armed police & etcs who act thinking they are doing a honorable duty for their country to Mary - a random woman caught in an attempted murder shooting her husbands unarmed best mate so he won't tell on her .


"Man may not be degraded  to being a machine by being denied to be a ghost in the machine."
It's just transport. The virus in the hard drive . However impossible .Must be the truth.
 

June 14, 2016 8:16 pm  #4073


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

But the series didn't end there and we've had another episode since...
John and Sherlock both seem to have both moved on from the incident, so presumably it's not too great a stretch for them.


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

June 14, 2016 9:17 pm  #4074


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Mothonthemantel wrote:

Seems wrong to me to compare secret agents ,soldiers ,armed police & etcs who act thinking they are doing a honorable duty for their country to Mary - a random woman caught in an attempted murder shooting her husbands unarmed best mate so he won't tell on her .

I agree with you. She was certainly not doing a honorable duty when shooting Sherlock.


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I still believe that love conquers all!

     

"Quick, man, if you love me."
 

June 14, 2016 9:38 pm  #4075


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

besleybean wrote:

But the series didn't end there and we've had another episode since...
John and Sherlock both seem to have both moved on from the incident, so presumably it's not too great a stretch for them.

 
Not relevant to what I said.
I don't care about professionals or whomever shooting at bad guys.
Shooting innocent people because they see you do it is a completely different thing.

Governments do not approve agents and police and soldiers to murder bystanding civillians do they ?
Agents acting with agency are answerable to superiors who one assumes either covers up or punishes after them...as happened with Sherlock ?


"Man may not be degraded  to being a machine by being denied to be a ghost in the machine."
It's just transport. The virus in the hard drive . However impossible .Must be the truth.
 

June 14, 2016 9:54 pm  #4076


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

John and Sherlock's attitudes toward Mary do not negate the fact that there is a moral difference between an assassin and a soldier.


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Proud President and Founder of the OSAJ.  
Honorary German  
"Anyone who takes himself too seriously always runs the risk of looking ridiculous; anyone who can consistently laugh at himself does not".
 -Vaclav Havel 
"Life is full of wonder, Love is never wrong."   Melissa Ethridge

I ship it harder than Mrs. Hudson.
    
 
 

June 15, 2016 5:09 am  #4077


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

I don't view that as a fact. I find nothing honorable in killing strangers who have done nothing wrong for the sake of whomever your politicians deem "the enemy".

Neither do I find it any more honorable to kill people for money (as I assume an assassin does).

But there are circumstances when war is, not honorable, but necessary. And there are circumstances where an assassin killing one person might improve or save the lifes of many.

So to me, being as assassin or soldier, is not better or worse than the other in itself. It all depends, as with so many things.


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings


Team Hudders!
 
 

June 17, 2016 4:01 am  #4078


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Maybe this will make the difference: Mary stated that she would go to prison for the rest of her life-- for the crimes (murders, she's an assassin!) that were referenced on the AGRA thumb drive. Meaning, this isn't just government sanctioned killings of "people who need to be killed". She did something so bad, so unforgivable that John would stop loving her and she would go to prison for it. 

 

June 17, 2016 5:02 am  #4079


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

I had to google this... even if Mary had a government sanctioned "license to kill", she isn't exempt from the law: she could still go to prison if caught or her actions exposed. (Here's one of the results I came up with https://www.quora.com/Do-secret-agents-really-have-license-to-kill). Her freelance work is obviously another matter... I think we are going to find out more about that in s4.

As for John not loving her if he found out her past, perhaps she assumes that since he is a law-abiding man (or at least on the side of the angels if he does break any laws whilst helping to catch murderers and other criminals), he would judge her actions as bad and wrong. Since John didn't read the thumb drive, we don't know what those actions were or how he would judge them. If he believes she is essentially good but had to do bad things, maybe he would have forgiven her. But Mary would not have wanted to risk that if she could avoid it.


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June 17, 2016 5:58 am  #4080


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

I suspect that even government sanctioned assassinations would usually not be "official" - and the same probably for some of the secret agent work.   If she was arrested it's possible (likely?) that she was not supposed to say that she was on government orders.   And of course she has done work that isn't for the British governement (the CIA, freelance) and that might be what comes back to bite her.    It's odd that she's carrying it around on a memory stick, but that's another matter.

I think it's also possible that Mary doesn't mean there's something else on the stick, but that John won't love her after reading the details.  It's easier for him to accept she was an assassin/agent without the details, and in fact that's what he chooses to do. 

 

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