BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Mary

nakahara · June 9, 2016 7:41 pm

besleybean wrote:
I completely disagree.
Mary made a bad choice.
Everybody has got over it and moved on.

Everybody? Lestrade? Molly? Mycroft?

besleybean · June 9, 2016 7:43 pm

Because she did it because she didn't want to lose John...well sorry, that's why she went after CAM and Sherlock got in the way- she needed to buy herself some time.
If Sherlock had listened to Mycroft, he wouldn't have got shot.
We don't 100% know that Mycroft didn't at least know about Mary going after CAM.

besleybean · June 9, 2016 7:44 pm

The people that matter, Nakahara...Sherlock and John and possibly Mycroft.

Last edited by besleybean (June 9, 2016 7:45 pm)

tonnaree · June 9, 2016 7:44 pm

I'd call killing people for money much more than a "bad choice."

besleybean · June 9, 2016 7:45 pm

Well British agents did that for many years and possibly still do.

nakahara · June 9, 2016 7:49 pm

besleybean wrote:
Well British agents did that for many years and possibly still do.

Do they usually kill their siblings and friends with impunity too?

besleybean · June 9, 2016 7:51 pm

Which sibling has Mary killed?
Sherlock is still alive.

nakahara · June 9, 2016 7:57 pm

besleybean wrote:
Which sibling has Mary killed?
Sherlock is still alive.

If Mycroft works together with Mary then he is obviously all right with having his sibling killed. I was speaking about him now.
Which is precisely the reason why his heartfelt speeches about being there for Sherlock would fly out of the window for me, if that proved to be true.

And Mary killed Sherlock. He flatlined. Mary would have to be a clairvoyant to predict that he would save himself thinking about John and the danger Mary poses to him and that this would revive him.

besleybean · June 9, 2016 7:59 pm

No, Mycroft(speculatively) sent Mary to kill CAM, so he possibly feels responsible for Sherlock getting shot...but it all turned out fine in the end.
And no, Mary would just have to hope a shot to the chest would be survivable, whereas one to the head wasn't...and she was proved right.

Last edited by besleybean (June 9, 2016 8:01 pm)

nakahara · June 9, 2016 8:15 pm

besleybean wrote:
No, Mycroft(speculatively) sent Mary to kill CAM, so he possibly feels responsible for Sherlock getting shot...but it all turned out fine in the end.

And he did not send Mary to the dungeon?
Incomprehensible.
Mycroft, unlike Sherlock, is not sentimental nor soft. Arguments like "Mary was scared", "Mary only did it to preserve John´s love", "Mary is female therefore not responsible for the bad things she does" would not have any weight with him if it was his brother who was at stake. He would hound Sherlock´s shooter down, if he really cared...
And yet Mary was not arrested....
What does it say about Mycroft?

Last edited by nakahara (June 9, 2016 8:15 pm)

besleybean · June 9, 2016 8:33 pm

That he works with Mary?

Liberty · June 9, 2016 8:48 pm

Going by Sherlock's explanation, it could also be possible that Mycroft would have expected Mary to kill anybody who got in the way at that point (whilst not expecting anyone else to get in the way - and not predicting it would be his brother who did!). He maybe doesn't see it as personal, and in fact (if Sherlock's to be believed) the "personal" part about was that she didn't shoot to kill, as she would have done otherwise. In that case, he might be more likely to blame Mary for not finishing off the job (of getting rid of Magnussen). And in fact, in a roundabout way, that's a wrong that she inadvertently ends up doing to Sherlock - having him take the flack for murdering "her" mark (which he wouldn't have had to do, if she'd killed Magnussen). Of course, all speculation and playing around with the idea that Mycroft hired Mary!

SolarSystem · June 9, 2016 9:27 pm

I'm not even thinking along the lines of Mary working for or with Mycroft. I just tend to believe that they have to have a relationship of some sort, just because up until now - and not considering TAB here - they don't seem to have any relationship whatsoever. And that to me is hard to believe. I can't and don't want to believe that she has been flying under Mycroft's radar all this time. He has to know something, if not everything about her. Nothing has been shown to us when it comes to the two of them. So in my opinion this will have to change in S4. Dramatically.

nakahara · June 9, 2016 9:34 pm

Liberty wrote:
Going by Sherlock's explanation, it could also be possible that Mycroft would have expected Mary to kill anybody who got in the way at that point (whilst not expecting anyone else to get in the way - and not predicting it would be his brother who did!).

Why? Mary is uncapable to subdue any intruders the way she did subdue Janine and the guard?
Or Mycroft simply likes to see people killed unnecessarily?
Also, Mary acts like a robot and doesn´t adjust her actions when new circumstances emerge? Like, when she recognises that it´s the brother of her employer who entered, she cannot alter the order and spare him, knowing that Mycroft would appreciate that?
What if it was John who entered?
And why would Mary dwindle then and listen to CAM´s speech about her husband and not shoot him immediately if that was what she came to do there?
And for last, why didn´t she kill CAM right after she shot Sherlock if she was Mycroft´s employee and acted on his order? She would manage to finish her job that way according to the criteria you just mentioned.

Liberty wrote:
He maybe doesn't see it as personal, and in fact (if Sherlock's to be believed) the "personal" part about was that she didn't shoot to kill, as she would have done otherwise. In that case, he might be more likely to blame Mary for not finishing off the job (of getting rid of Magnussen). And in fact, in a roundabout way, that's a wrong that she inadvertently ends up doing to Sherlock - having him take the flack for murdering "her" mark (which he wouldn't have had to do, if she'd killed Magnussen). Of course, all speculation and playing around with the idea that Mycroft hired Mary!

Mycroft doesn´t consider shooting of his brother as "personal"?
And he still employs Mary who shot his brother + didn´t finish CAM the way he asked her?
Why would Mycroft tolerate this big failure and let Mary roam free after that?

RavenMorganLeigh · June 10, 2016 3:31 am

besleybean wrote:
No, Mycroft(speculatively) sent Mary to kill CAM, so he possibly feels responsible for Sherlock getting shot...but it all turned out fine in the end.
And no, Mary would just have to hope a shot to the chest would be survivable, whereas one to the head wasn't...and she was proved right.

Well, there's a psychopath for you! :-) AA said it herself. But seriously, Mary would just ..."hope for the best"... and shoot the person she called a friend, who planned her wedding, who gives her space and sanction to be with John, and then offers to help her--- and that's just peachy? A-okay? And then Sherlock only getting out of hospital just before Christmas? That's a bit Not Fine. Not Good. How is this character even defendable?

besleybean · June 10, 2016 5:42 am

Well this is how Mark and Steven have chosen to play her.
I'm happy to go along with their vision.
She works for me.
Sherlock and John seem happy with her, so I am too.

nakahara · June 10, 2016 6:51 am

besleybean wrote:
Well this is how Mark and Steven have chosen to play her.
I'm happy to go along with their vision.
She works for me.
Sherlock and John seem happy with her, so I am too.

I think that because of the circumstances of HLV and TAB, we didn´t really saw Sherlock being happy with Mary after she shot him. I cannot remember any scene which could be described like that.
So it´s something that we´ll only see in S4, by chance...

Schmiezi · June 10, 2016 7:10 am

What I still fail to see is proof (as in action and words and camera angles and costumes etc) that John feels a lot of affection for Mary in HLV and TAB.

:-)

Whisky · June 10, 2016 8:32 am

I'm trying to imagine the christmas dinner. Everybody sits round that table, that is, as far as we know, Sherlock's parents, Mary and John, Bill and Sherlock himself.
What would they talk about?

Mycroft and Sherlock would bicker, so maybe they wouldn't be the focus of the conversation for long. To prevent them from bickering, maybe Bill would tell some stories about his work... or he wouldn't because he knows noone and keeps back, only speaking up when it's about Sherlock and his work.

Mycroft, don't think he's one for idle conversation, at least not with family.

So I see Sherlock's Mum talking to John, to be honest, supported by her husband and Mary.
What would they talk about? Sherlock's shooting, not likely, too uncomfortable. I'd guess it would be about John and Mary "how is it going, how is the pregnancy, what plans do you have". And as Sherlock parents seem polite, they would probably ask Mary about her job, her earlier life... getting to know her. uhm.

And Mycroft? Will listen to it, thinking what? "who is she?" "boring girl" "takes away John from Sherlock" or, if they're aquainted "don't feck up girl, play nice, keep up the fassade, don't tell them you shot him or mum will turn monstrous and I hate family drama"... or "you bitch shot my little brother, going to make your life hell" etc etc

I also don't believe that Mycroft believes that sherlock invited Bill without a bigger motivation than company. So, Mycroft suspects things, I guess? What are Marys thoughts about Mycroft? If he doesn't know her yet, she must be shit scared he finds out about who shot Sherlock. If they work together, she must be under loads of pressure, too.

I'm not getting anywhere it's just, that christmas scene... it's where Mycroft and Mary must have met. And i cannot imagine how it went... either way... but, god, it must have been awkward...

If I think about it, I would love to see that scene someday!

Settercrazy · June 10, 2016 8:37 am

I'm with BesleyBean on this one---let's simply remember that Gatiss/Moffat are usually trying to follow the books. This means that John loved his Mary, he married his Mary, he will lose his Mary. Both writers are also saying that the friendship of Sherlock & John is the greatest in history. Watson moved out and lived with his wife for a while, so does he in this series. I just don't know why we have to bash Mary and act like the very obvious affection between her and John is non existent. Their falling in love happened several months before our season 3 begins, because it's a side story. During HLV their relationship is obviously in crisis. Yes, you won't hear John spout good things about her during that episode when he's very upset finding out her identity, but you also have them reunite and give each other a heartfelt, sincere long hug at Christmas when they reunite. At this point I'm simply trusting the writers to play this out naturally, whichever way they choose to go and I'm absolutely sure that we will see that the Sherlock/John friendship (or relationship) however you want to see it will remain strong and intense and everything we want it to be in series 4. Now, not saying that events don't leave marks on our two heroes...and on us, but I think that's the interesting journey we take within this series. :-)

Last edited by Settercrazy (June 10, 2016 8:39 am)