BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Homophobia in Fandom*

tonnaree · June 8, 2016 5:06 pm

So it's wrong that I find two men having sex erotic?

Schmiezi · June 8, 2016 5:49 pm

Of course not! It seems to me that Andrew thinks it is wrong, nothing more.

tonnaree · June 8, 2016 5:57 pm

Of course I also find two women having sex erotic,
and a man and a women......................aw hell, my hubby claims that all it takes to turn me on is a good stiff breeze.
*giggle*

Yitzock · June 8, 2016 5:57 pm

Well, I think there's a difference between fetishizing it and just finding "hot" because it's two people who love each other expressing it in that way. At least, I think that's what I think.

It's hard for me to pinpoint exactly how to phrase it any other way, but I guess there's a difference between "this is hot because it's two men going at it and I'm objectifying that experience and taking it out of any context other than that this turns me on" and "this is hot because it's two men going at it/having sex/making love and I appreciate what this means for their relationship and it's beautiful the way people show their devotion and all kinds of love are beautiful, including this."
I feel like that might be a wordy way of saying it and there might be some variation in the second one, but does that make sense?

I don't know much about how fetishes work, though, so maybe fetishizing is not the right word. Maybe more like objectifying is what I'm thinking of.

Last edited by Yitzock (June 8, 2016 5:59 pm)

Schmiezi · June 8, 2016 5:59 pm

I still don't get what should be wrong about it.

Is there anything wrong with having a fetish?

tonnaree · June 8, 2016 6:04 pm

I think that's basically right Yitzock. I think another difference is when you are so obsessed with a particular thing that it becomes the only way you can achieve sexual satisfaction. There's a long way between finding something erotic and not being able to *cough* get off without it.

tonnaree · June 8, 2016 6:04 pm

Are we off topic?
I'm actually not sure.
Susi?

ewige · June 8, 2016 6:30 pm

Oddly enough, I haven't met any homophobia in the fandom. Probably because the show had a certain rainbow vibe from the get go so that homophobic people have been filtered out right away and never really made it into the fandom?
But maybe I'm just talking to all the right people (seriously, haven't met a homophobic fan in any of my fandoms...)

Last edited by ewige (June 8, 2016 6:35 pm)

besleybean · June 9, 2016 6:36 am

The nearest thing I've encountered is people saying the thought of gay sex is gross.
Which is obviously up to them.
But again, I have to say, I personally just find this a tad odd- on two levels actually.
1. I generally don't like to think of anybody having sex.
2. Why are some people obsessed with the mechanics of how particularly gay men have sex and why do they think it's any less gross than a man and woman?!
Anyhow, I guess we have strayed off topic somewhat and all I can say is I'm so glad I couldn't get access to the forum last night...this is all really so not my area.
My base line feeling is that it's ok for any of us to have whatever personal fantasies we like(though even the thought of 'fetish' makes me shiver), but obvioulsy we are not free to impose them on anybody else.

Last edited by besleybean (June 9, 2016 6:37 am)

Liberty · June 9, 2016 7:05 am

Yes, if people find the thought of gay sex gross, then why are they thinking about it? I'm sure plenty of people find "straight sex" gross.

On the idea of "fetishing" same sex relationships - I think I get where people are coming from with that. The idea is that people are using other people's sexual orientation, something that's important and part of them, for their own sexual/romantic gratification. I understand why some people find that a little offensive.

On the other hand, I do think it's perfectly natural and normal to like the idea of two attractive men together. My feeling is that actually a lot (not all!) of the appeal is romantic, and I'm not quite sure why this is, but people have been drawn to the romance of male/male relationships for years. I've thought quite a lot about what that means, although this isn't the place for it - getting way off topic!

besleybean · June 9, 2016 7:10 am

I have said it before and say it again, somebody needs to do a Phd study on this: why are fan girls obsessed with seeing hot male leads get it on?
Guilty as charged.
But I feel I do recognise when that is not what is being shown.

ewige · June 9, 2016 8:14 am

besleybean wrote:
why are fan girls obsessed with seeing hot male leads get it on?

I saw a fair amount of slash in my pre-Sherlock days and never really got it (pre-Sherlock, *eye roll*). Whenever I asked my friends why they shipped Kirk/Spock, Harry/Draco etc, the reply was that the dynamics between the characters was just so very fascinating. None said anything about gay sex, altho it would be a natural progression of a relationship for many fans.

This is why I can barely wrap my mind about show fans being homophobic. Shipping a same-sex couple seems to be mostly about their chemistry, just like any other couple on screen. Nobody needs to think about sex if they don't want to.

ukaunz · June 9, 2016 12:37 pm

I really like the distinction you made there Yitzock, and I like what you said too, Liberty.

I think Andrew's statements in the Paris Q&A are somewhat off topic, but since we are discussing them...

I had never read any M/M (or F/F) slash prior to discovering Sherlock and this fandom. I don't think I even knew it existed... Well, perhaps I would have assumed there were stories written by and for gay men. I certainly had no idea how big a thing it was, and how much of a culture and history surrounds slash fic, and how a large number of the stories are written by and for women. I've never been interested in reading romance, and have never found any (hetero) erotic literature that did anything for me. But when I read my first Johnlock story, I was drawn in by how perfectly the characters go together, and I found it terribly romantic. At first I found descriptions of M/M sex rather confronting, but pretty soon I was avidly reading the most explicit stories and finding them very hot. Then, due to certain things happening in my personal life, I just started to question why I was reading these sorts of stories and getting turned on by them. I wasn't as interested in reading M/F or F/F fanfics (I did try some out), and while I do love a good gen casefic, I wasn't staying up past my bedtime reading them under the covers. And it wasn't just the sex scenes that did it for me, it was the slow building friends to lovers arcs, the fluffy romance and the angst too. I was getting actual physical symptoms (heart squeezes) from those feels that I've never felt before! And I was envious of these two beautiful fictional men! This probably says a lot about me and my past/present relationships, so I won't go into details. Anyway, I started to feel guilty about it, even before I heard what Andrew had to say about it. I did worry that I was fetishising or objectifying gay sex for my own pleasure and that it might be wrong. And it's all in my own head, and I don't extend this feeling to other people who can read and enjoy and fantasise about whatever they want, but I just can't seem to enjoy reading slash anymore. Which is sad really, because it was one of the few things I did enjoy lately. (And rather than spilling my guts here I should probably see a therapist!)

As for the actual topic of discussion... I have seen people on tumblr anonymously posting homophobic comments, and I'm sure I've seen it in other places too, but I can't seem to find anything to quote. I too tend to explore this fandom in spaces that are very accepting of all sexual orientations and viewpoints. But I do wonder how the general, mainstream audience would react if Sherlock and John did end up together romantically.

mrshouse · June 9, 2016 12:50 pm

Aw, ukaunz, the first part of your post could have been written by me....
First contact with reading m/m fanfic, the feeeeelz......
But.... I don't think you should feel guilty about it by what Andrew said. I just don't feel it's wrong to read about fictional characters in a fictional story and enjoying it your way, no matter which pairings. Whatever rocks your boat I should think. One certainly does not read stories that are boring or simply no matter of interest or written badly.

besleybean · June 9, 2016 1:49 pm

Well again I'm prepared to hold my hand up and plead guilty as charged.
I honestly would rather read stories with no sex at all.
But if it has to be sex(in fiction!), I would prefer it was gay sex...straight sex just bores the life out of me.

tonnaree · June 9, 2016 2:22 pm

I'm very pro-sex myself.

besleybean · June 9, 2016 2:23 pm

Again, that one hadn't gone past my radar...
Funny how we are all so different.
But then, I've always known I was from another planet to the rest of the population!

Yitzock · June 9, 2016 2:34 pm

Nah, I don't think you are. Lots of people like sex, but some of us are more indifferent to it. I've become used to it in some stuff over time, but I still don't love seeing it.
In fact, I feel like there's only so much I can say about this current topic of discussion because of that.
I'm generally sex-positive, but it's just not something I desire for myself particularly.

Last edited by Yitzock (June 9, 2016 2:35 pm)

besleybean · June 9, 2016 2:37 pm

Sensible girl!

Yitzock · June 9, 2016 2:40 pm

If asexuality is sensible...then I'll take that!
It's not that there's no exceptions to how I've found it in stories...there are moving "love scenes," but it's not something I absolutely need, though I understand that other people find that stuff more enticing.

Last edited by Yitzock (June 9, 2016 3:43 pm)