BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Mary

GimmeCat · June 8, 2016 11:24 pm

I think the point was rather there is literally nothing categorically 'good' John ever calls Mary. It's more a list of all the good things they call eachother, which is why "wife" is there, as you could technically consider that almost... neutral-ish.

Settercrazy · June 8, 2016 11:41 pm

How about this one:
Sherlock: This is my friend, John Watson
John: Colleague!

LOL :-) We should be happy they all are so close to each other John, Mary and Sherlock.

GimmeCat · June 9, 2016 12:28 am

If either of them are close to Mary, they should probably say more nice things about her. Or, any nice things.

SusiGo · June 9, 2016 5:59 am

Settercrazy wrote:
Isn't this quite selective? hahaha

How about John To/about Sherlock:
You Machine
the other one is a complete dickhead
I'm going to kill you
I always hear punch me in the face

John to/about Mary
She's completely changed my life
Best day of my life (wedding day)
Meeting you is the best thing that could have happened to me

What I'm saying is---selectively listing of random comments can be very misleading. LOL

It would have been nice if my tumblr post had been quoted completely or if you had referred to my own posting of the the complete meta. Because it is not selective. It is not a nice for me to be laughed at because of an incomplete quote. Here is the text in its entirety:

Sherlock, John, and Mary - Terms of Endearment

So I had a look at how Sherlock and John describe each other, leaving out terms like “idiot” and “annoying dick” (even if they are not used in an insulting way) and concentrating on positive descriptions. I came up with this list which surely is not comprehensive but should provide a sufficient basis:

John about Sherlock:

brilliant
amazing
quite extraordinary
fantastic
my best friend
the most human … human being
you were the best man
You were the best and the wisest man that I have ever known.”
“’Course you’re my best friend.”

Sherlock about John:

This is my friend, John Watson.
My friend John Watson
the bravest and kindest and wisest human being I have ever had the good fortune of knowing
invaluable
one feature, and only one feature, of interest in the whole of this baffling case, and quite frankly it was the usual. John Watson.

Then I had look at how John who is supposed to love Mary talks about her. Guess what? I could not find a single positive word or expression. Nothing but negative or neutral terms and I looked at all the episodes. This is what I found:

my lying wife
the woman who’s carrying my child who has lied to me since the day I met her
client
assassin
my pregnant wife
my wife

Not a single term of endearment. Sherlock at least once calls her “clever” whereas for John Mary seems merely reduced to her functions: wife, assassin, client. The language is quite telling, if you ask me.

Last edited by SusiGo (June 9, 2016 6:03 am)

besleybean · June 9, 2016 6:43 am

Wow, the red jars the eyes!

Liberty · June 9, 2016 6:44 am

I'm with you, Lola - we just don't have all the information, and there are mixed messages. But I think that at the moment, we're meant to going S4 thinking that John and Mary are reconciled and that Sherlock has forgiven her, and she's not an evil monster, but somebody who has done wrong. That does not mean at all that this couldn't be the very rug that's going to be pulled from under us - who knows what ghosts are going to come back? But that's the way I think it is being left.

I think one thing to bear in mind too, is that the show is about Sherlock and John and their relationship - Mary is a side character. So I wouldn't expect to see comments similar to the ones Sherlock and John have made (often at key points). The worst things John says about Mary are part a major plot point (and justified at the time). There are some nice things John says about Mary too .. when he starts to propose, when he's sitting on the bench talking to Sherlock - those spring to mind for me, but there might be more. I don't think either of them (John or Mary) are particularly expressive with each other.

besleybean · June 9, 2016 7:01 am

I've mentioned this before.
I sometimes feel there is no pleasing people.
To show us a fuller relationship with John and Mary, we would need more air time for them.
The show isn't about them and then people would be moaning they would be getting too much air time!
I'm not saying I agree with how Mark and Steven decided to present Mary.
But for me they clearly wanted to use Amanda's talent, make the role worthwhile for her and (as with Irene) update and strengthen Doyle's original character.
This may also be useful to them for future plot developments...not least Mary's exit from the show.
I am unsure of how people would have liked Mary to be or in fact how they cannot understand that John loves her.
I really do not feel(despite any future jarring revelations)that Mary is being painted as a great villain.
As with Irene she made bad choices and did bad things.
But I have no doubt that she loves John or that he loves her. Mary just wants to be a part of John's life.
Some didn't want her in the show and want her out, we all get that. But let's try and understand the character.

Last edited by besleybean (June 9, 2016 7:05 am)

Settercrazy · June 9, 2016 7:59 am

Well-said Besleybean---those are my sentiments exactly. :-)

SolarSystem · June 9, 2016 9:09 am

besleybean wrote:
But let's try and understand the character.

So are you insinuating that people aren't trying to understand the character? How about this: People are trying to understand the character and they are coming to different conclusions than you do.

mrshouse · June 9, 2016 10:10 am

SolarSystem wrote:
besleybean wrote:
But let's try and understand the character.
So are you insinuating that people aren't trying to understand the character? How about this: People are trying to understand the character and they are coming to different conclusions than you do.

Well said, Solar. This exactly.
There's a difference between discussing and plain wank.
Personally I try to understand a lot of things:
- I try to understand, why this is the first Holmes-and-Watson-adaptation that suddenly needs glue to be held together
-I try to understand why I have to accept said glue as the best thing since sliced bread after using a horrible back story to shock the audience but being given next to nothing to empathize with her.
- I try to understand why said horrible back-story of said glue is suddenly swept under the rug and possibly being turned into things and skills more acceptable.
- I try to understand why a main character that has grown to me with all its flaws has to be lonely, a bit sad and has to sacrifice himself for said glue to have its (deserved?) happy ending.
-finally I try to understand why a character is introduced and blown out of proportion in its importance without a proper casting so we could maybe have a warstan marriage that is not as dull as my cellar.
Those are things I honestly try to understand.

tonnaree · June 9, 2016 11:42 am

SolarSystem wrote:
besleybean wrote:
But let's try and understand the character.
So are you insinuating that people aren't trying to understand the character? How about this: People are trying to understand the character and they are coming to different conclusions than you do.

If we weren't trying to understand the character this thread would not have over 4000 posts.

stoertebeker · June 9, 2016 1:02 pm

SolarSystem wrote:
besleybean wrote:
But let's try and understand the character.
So are you insinuating that people aren't trying to understand the character? How about this: People are trying to understand the character and they are coming to different conclusions than you do.

Maybe, but all views on a character should be allowed and tollerated, shouldn't they?

@Susi: I do understand your anger. It wasn't nice nor fair to copy your text out of context and without telling the source. But IMO the criticism is still a bit valid. Your list is selective in regarding of Mary. John did say that she is the best thing that had ever happended to him and that she turned his live around.

SusiGo · June 9, 2016 1:06 pm

Believe me, I have searched thoroughly.

As you can see, I have concentrated on adjectives and nouns describing people. Therefore e.g. I left out "I was so alone and I owe you so much" despite it being one of the most beautiful sentences of the show.

And John did not say she was the best thing that happened to him. Your version is what Mary says, not John. Here is the quote:

JOHN: Yeah, meeting you has been the best thing that could have possibly happened.
MARY: I agree.
JOHN: What?
MARY (smiling): I agree I’m the best thing that could have happened to you.

This may seem selective but I had to make some restrictions because otherwise I could have quoted half the show, at least where Sherlock and John are concerned.

P.S. My criticism was not so much about the word "selective" but more about the "hahaha" which is quite impolite.

Last edited by SusiGo (June 9, 2016 1:08 pm)

SolarSystem · June 9, 2016 1:13 pm

stoertebeker wrote:
SolarSystem wrote:
besleybean wrote:
But let's try and understand the character.
So are you insinuating that people aren't trying to understand the character? How about this: People are trying to understand the character and they are coming to different conclusions than you do.

Maybe, but all views on a character should be allowed and tollerated, shouldn't they?

Uhm, of course? And what do you mean, 'maybe'? Where did you read a post of mine saying that different opinions aren't allowed? By saying that different people come to different conclusions I wasn't saying that only one type of conclusion is allowed or valid. And as a matter of fact, the sentence I was replying to seemed to me as an allegation that some people aren't trying to understand the character.

stoertebeker · June 9, 2016 1:17 pm

SusiGo wrote:
P.S. My criticism was not so much about the word "selective" but more about the "hahaha" which is quite impolite.

Very true. But sadly relaxation and politness is quite a rare feature here lately. That's not a criticism to you or anyone else personaly. It's how I feel the general mood on this forum at the moment.
Though I don't share the opinion towards Mary of the majority here, by now I almost hope that she'll indeed leaves in S4. Maybe then it will be getting a bit more relaxed here again.

stoertebeker · June 9, 2016 1:20 pm

SolarSystem wrote:
stoertebeker wrote:
SolarSystem wrote:

So are you insinuating that people aren't trying to understand the character? How about this: People are trying to understand the character and they are coming to different conclusions than you do.

Maybe, but all views on a character should be allowed and tollerated, shouldn't they?
Uhm, of course? And what do you mean, 'maybe'? Where did you read a post of mine saying that different opinions aren't allowed? By saying that different people come to different conclusions I wasn't saying that only one type of conclusion is allowed or valid. And as a matter of fact, the sentence I was replying to seemed to me as an allegation that some people aren't trying to understand the character.

See my post above. It's not about something someone particular said or wrote. It's the general atmosphere here as well as in other threads I perceive as tense and disapproving towards certain opinions.

SolarSystem · June 9, 2016 1:26 pm

stoertebeker wrote:
SolarSystem wrote:
stoertebeker wrote:

Maybe, but all views on a character should be allowed and tollerated, shouldn't they?
Uhm, of course? And what do you mean, 'maybe'? Where did you read a post of mine saying that different opinions aren't allowed? By saying that different people come to different conclusions I wasn't saying that only one type of conclusion is allowed or valid. And as a matter of fact, the sentence I was replying to seemed to me as an allegation that some people aren't trying to understand the character.

See my post above. It's not about something someone particular said or wrote. It's the general atmosphere here as well as in other threads I perceive as tense and disapproving towards certain opinions.

Which goes both ways. But I understand that it's mostly the people critical towards Mary who are accused of being disapproving of other opinions.

SusiGo · June 9, 2016 1:28 pm

Now this is strange. I have perceived the atmosphere on the board as very relaxed over the last months. Passionate discussion but hardly any aggression. Lots of fun with setlock. Maybe I am alone in this but I do not see what you are perceiving, stoertebeker, and I am here every day.

besleybean · June 9, 2016 1:38 pm

I see healthy robust debate, all good for a discussion forum.

stoertebeker · June 9, 2016 1:47 pm

SolarSystem wrote:
stoertebeker wrote:
SolarSystem wrote:
Uhm, of course? And what do you mean, 'maybe'? Where did you read a post of mine saying that different opinions aren't allowed? By saying that different people come to different conclusions I wasn't saying that only one type of conclusion is allowed or valid. And as a matter of fact, the sentence I was replying to seemed to me as an allegation that some people aren't trying to understand the character.

See my post above. It's not about something someone particular said or wrote. It's the general atmosphere here as well as in other threads I perceive as tense and disapproving towards certain opinions.
Which goes both ways. But I understand that it's mostly the people critical towards Mary who are accused of being disapproving of other opinions.

That's how I see it, yes.

BUT:

SusiGo wrote:
Now this is strange. I have perceived the atmosphere on the board as very relaxed over the last months. Passionate discussion but hardly any aggression. Lots of fun with setlock. Maybe I am alone in this but I do not see what you are perceiving, stoertebeker, and I am here every day.

It just doesn't feel good to have an opinion that the majority of the people here does not share and reading the objections over and over again.

If I am the only one who thinks that way, then it's obvious my problem. So I am very sorry for bringing any foul mood in here.