BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Mary

Lola Red · May 22, 2016 7:29 pm

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:
besleybean wrote:
I really don't see the team going with this.
Unless it is one mega twist, but with the baby?
Honestly-- I have to agree. As much as I would like Mary to be revealed as a villain in s4, I suspect that she'll still be a part of the "team" by the end of s4. I don't think she's going to die-- mainly because that's exactly what everyone expects. Where's the surprise, there? If I were writing the series, and my priority was Shocks!, and Big Plot Twists!, and Paradigm-Shifting Reveals!-- the very last thing I'd do would be to kill Mary. I'd kill Mycroft-- or Mrs. Hudson, or even John. Note that I'm only saying that this is what I'd do if I were writing the series the way Mofftiss seem to be writing.

Obviously, none of those options are really what I'd want to see in Sherlock.

Maybe she'll die in s5, but I suspect they're going to make a martyr out of her.

I don't quite see it that way. I still believe that Mary will very likely be gone by the end of season 4. Until now Moftiss have stayed reasonably true to canon (see TRF and TEH, the major plot points: Sherlock confronts Moriarty, both apparently die, John grieves for Sherlock, John and Sherlock are reunited are all there). Aside from HLV, we had no big shock moments that (at least to me) seemed to be done for the sake of having a big shock moment, but flowed naturally from the narrative. So I think that in the end we will have the same situation we have in canon: due to a "sad bereavement", Mary will no longer play an (active) part in the narrative. Now how that "sad bereavement" is interpreted will, I think, be the really interesting part.

Last edited by Lola Red (May 22, 2016 7:30 pm)

besleybean · May 22, 2016 7:31 pm

I agree.

kgreen20 · May 23, 2016 2:53 am

I do, too.

RavenMorganLeigh · May 23, 2016 3:24 am

The thing is, Mofftiss have already deviated from Canon--Sherlock doesn't just now and again do a seven percent solution of Coke, he's a full-fledged Junkie who can only access his mind palace under the influence of drugs.

Moriarty as a young psychotic.

Mary as an assassin. John happily embracing that assassin (who shot Sherlock) and living in wedded bliss.

Also, Mofftiss have talked about the fact that they don't think it was ever clear that Mary actually died! According to them, she could have just been in the background all this time.

RavenMorganLeigh · May 23, 2016 4:13 am

However Mark Gatiss went on to insist that audiences shouldn’t assume anything of the sort.

“Just because it’s in the stories doesn’t mean it’ll happen in the series because there’s an awful lot of changes and an awful lot of places to go and things to do. It should be clear by now that while, of course, Doyle is our absolute god, we have gone quite a long way away as well – we’ve introduced Sherlock and Mycroft’s parents [for instance], I don’t think they’ve ever been seen in any adaptation – so there are lots of surprises to come.”

http://www.inquisitr.com/1626500/mark-gatiss-sherlock-season-4-includes-a-tragedy-will-mary-watson-die/

besleybean · May 23, 2016 5:34 am

I just don't think we'll get any new big reveal about Mary, I feel we've been there and done that.
We may get back story, particularly if her past does catch up with her.
Though that may include who she works for, is related to etc.

Last edited by besleybean (May 23, 2016 5:37 am)

Liberty · May 23, 2016 7:46 am

I think it has been interesting the way Mary has kind of been reversed - that she more or less disappears from Doyle around the time of the marriage proposal, but in "Sherlock" she's introduced to us around the time of the marriage proposal. They're clearly not following canon in that way, so it does leave it open for them to leave her alive. They've hinted that she's got to die, but it's not an absolute certainty.

SusiGo · May 23, 2016 7:51 am

I think it is not so much about her dying but about her leaving the show or not. They could come up with all sorts of solutions - escape, divorce, imprisonment, witness protection, whatever. But if she remains, the whole Holmes/Watson dynamic will be irrevocably changed and - IMO - not in a good way.

besleybean · May 23, 2016 3:49 pm

Indeed and I wonder how the team feel about that.

SusiGo · May 23, 2016 3:55 pm

I think it does not matter how they feel about that. It is their writing decisions that are at the core of the show. They may change the dynamic if they wish to do so. But then they are changing the fundament of the SH universe, too. And I have no idea why they should do so if they are such ACD fanboys. Canon was always about Holmes and Watson, never about them and a wife.

besleybean · May 23, 2016 3:59 pm

I know, I agree and I do tend to think they will stick to Canon...they just seem to be very keen on Amanda.

Liberty · May 23, 2016 4:33 pm

I agree too ... and right from the beginning they have seemed very invested in the relationship between Sherlock and John. I'm wondering (if Mary survives) if she could be a more peripheral character like Lestrade or Molly. I really find it difficult to see them as a threesome. And also John has to come back to 221B (surely?) and I don't see how that would work with Mary on the scene.

besleybean · May 23, 2016 4:36 pm

So are we all agreed?
Mary can live, but not with Sherlock/John!
Though having said that, I do feel a bit guilty about Mary...
Maybe I should accept her being around.

Schmiezi · May 23, 2016 5:01 pm

besleybean wrote:
So are we all agreed?
Mary can live, but not with Sherlock/John!

Agreed! :-)

Edit: @bb Mary shot Sherlock and was forgiven. I am sure that you will be forgiven as well. ;-)

Last edited by Schmiezi (May 23, 2016 5:10 pm)

kgreen20 · May 24, 2016 12:53 am

SusiGo wrote:
I think it is not so much about her dying but about her leaving the show or not. They could come up with all sorts of solutions - escape, divorce, imprisonment, witness protection, whatever. But if she remains, the whole Holmes/Watson dynamic will be irrevocably changed and - IMO - not in a good way.

I agree, and I'm counting on Moffat and Gatiss not to ruin the show that way.

besleybean · May 24, 2016 5:34 am

I confess I remain confused about this one.
I mean I obviously don't know what the team will do, but my gut reaction is that they will remove Mary some how.
But a couple of points on this:
I am now feeling bad about wanting her removed and I do think it could work with her remaining.
But from what the team have said, I think she will go and a repeat if it's a choice between her and Mycroft, it would have to be her.
But let's look beyond Mary's departure.
What will happen?
We presume John will return to Baker Street.
Will he go back dating over women, as before?

Last edited by besleybean (May 24, 2016 5:34 am)

Schmiezi · May 24, 2016 6:13 am

I think "John back at Baker Street, dating women" would be a step backwards, storywise. That would only mean going back to what we had in S1 and S2, no progress.

Therefore I doubt it.

besleybean · May 24, 2016 6:17 am

But wouldn't it reflect real life?
The vast majority of widowers do at least start dating again, if not remarry.
As I see Mary as the love of John's life, i would like to feel he would never meet anybody else to match her.
But it seems neither fair nor realistic to expect John to live as a monk.
I mean in TV land they can do what they like and I would like John to remain single, but who knows?

Liberty · May 24, 2016 6:27 am

But I think that in the context of these two, it would be fine. 221B is iconic, and you always imagine Holmes and Watson there together, not Holmes on his own. It wouldn't be a step backwards because it looks like something big and tragic is going to happen in S4, and so it won't be quite the same John and/or Sherlock as in S1/S2.

If Mary dies, I don't know if John would be dating again right away. It's possible that they wouldn't show it anyway - no need. (It was shown in S1 to establish it and when it fitted the story).

SolarSystem · May 24, 2016 6:38 am

I agree. John and Sherlock both have changed since S1/S2, so I'm sure there would be a different feel to them being back together in 221B. And quite frankly, at the moment I don't really care whether or not John will be dating women again. All I know is that should he start dating again, I don't want this to be shown in great detail, because I'm just not interested.