nakahara wrote:

Liberty wrote:

I don't think she was ever really a risk to John, though.   Sherlock thought she was, before he worked out her motives.  But afterwards he realised that she wanted to keep John (and to protect him).  Sherlock was the one at risk - she certainly wanted him to think that he was.

John was definitely in danger from her there at Lenister Gardens. If her face was not projected on the building, she would have shot him right away.

Yes, I think John was in danger in that instant. But not because Mary would have tried to harm John, but because Mary was still trying to keep Sherlock form telling John the truth. Mary did not know that John was in that chair. And apparently, she was no danger to John afterwards, as Sherlock can a) finally take the time to heal and b) make the decision to leave John alone with her for the rest of his life. I have written about that in grater lengths at the beginning of this thread, but I believe that Mary was a danger between CAM's apartment and Leinster Gardens, while she was trying to protect her secret, but not after the truth was revealed. For me, the version where Sherlock would basically throw away his life to safe an assassin who is a grave danger to John just does not seem to make sense. What does make sense to me is Sherlock believing that Mary and John will be happy together and throwing his life away to give them a future.

No, I think they're good points, but I still don't think that's what we're meant to believe at this point.  (As I keep saying, things could change again in S4, but I don't think we're meant to be going into it seeing Mary as a villain, especially not after TAB).

Obviously, Mary shooting Sherlock was a terrible thing - Sherlock and John seem to forgive it, but it's difficult for us (Sherlock being the hero). 

Planning to kill CAM was a little different, and I think it's closer to Sherlock than is made out.  I'd agree that the big difference is that Mary can protect herself by killing CAM, whereas Sherlock is protecting other people.   But that assumes that self-protection is a terrible thing - this is a guy who threatens to have Mary killed, and Sherlock sees the only way to prevent that is to kill him first.   Mary just sees it earlier and tries to act earlier (and as it turns out, it would benefited everybody except CAM if she'd succeeded).  Mary's main aim is to protect her current life, but that also involves protecting the life with John - she doesn't want him broken, and she doesn't want to lose him.   If she purely wanted to protect herself and didn't care about anything else, the safest thing was always going to be to abscond, new identity.  That's what she would do if she was only concerned about her own life, and not about her husband and child.   Sherlock is a heroic character, whereas Mary is not (at the moment, anyway), but that doesn't mean she's supposed to be the villain.

I would say that if you were going to argue that she's a villain, the main point is that Sherlock virtually died, and there are some other parts that don't quite hold together.   But the trouble is that all those facts are there in plain sight for Sherlock to see - these aren't things he could easily overlook like Mary's comment about an accomplice.  It's possible that he is lying to placate Mary ... but then in TAB we see that he sees Mary as a clever ally, and he doesn't appear to be lying to her. 

Lola Red wrote:

For me, the version where Sherlock would basically throw away his life to safe an assassin who is a grave danger to John just does not seem to make sense. What does make sense to me is Sherlock believing that Mary and John will be happy together and throwing his life away to give them a future.

I agree.  I've come round to thinking that Sherlock actually cares a lot for Mary and think she's OK, and it seems to make more sense and hang together better.  

And Besleybean, yes I agree that we are likely to find out more, and we probably need to know what's going with Mycroft and Mary.   However, if she does turn out to be a villain after all, I don't think it will be the shooting in HLV that will reveal it.   It will be something new in S4. 

I feel as though I am seeing a lot of peoples views on Mary about how they feel.
Some have even said they don't feel terribly interested in how Sherlock and John feel.
But I don't really get this line of argument.
What are people saying?
That they will no longer watch the show, if they don't get what they want?
And actually, what do people want?
I think it was very brave of the team to present Mary the way they have.
I feel she will leave the series soon, but when she goes, she will have certainly made her mark.

And yet it seems to have happened.
What do we do with this information?
What evidence is there that Mary is a bigamist and why would one even suspect that?
There is no way Sherlock would leave John with Mary, if he felt John was in danger.

Liberty wrote:

But if Sherlock thinks of Mary as an evil mass murderer who is a risk to John, then it doesn't make sense for him to try to get them back together, to take on Mary's case, and then to sacrifice himself for them (for Mary, in particular) and then leave John alone with Mary. 

Mixed messages, I give you that. 

Sherlock never speaks about his motives before he acts on them, so I presume he had some reason for this kind of behaviour, even if we currently don´t know what it is.
I find it to be more plausible than Sherlock having sudden revelation in a taxi ride from Leinster Gardens to Baker Street which changes his outlook on Mary so radically - after she threatened him with a gun again. 

I just don't see any evidence for this...we know she is an assassin, isn't that enough?

Indeed, though this doesn't man she doesn't love him or that he doesn't love her...

I really don't see the team going with this.
Unless it is one mega twist, but with the baby?

Honestly, I would be very surprised if she doesn't die.
Though I suppose they could just send her away.
Well, I hope they write her making some great self-sacrifice, for the love of her husband/child...or even to save Sherlock.
But she could just be darn unlucky and her past catches up with her, or she gets caught in cross fire.
But again, the baby?
Of course someone could kill baby, so maybe Mary kills them. 
Would she then get locked away?
Or maybe she'll join Julian Assange in an  embassy or something!

Last edited by besleybean (May 22, 2016 7:18 pm)