Thank you for your explanation, Vhanja and Liberty. I understand exactly what you mean - and yet it´s because of these very reason you just stated that I see John as uncaring in those HLV scenes.

Yes, we are on the ground of TV reality. But even the TV reality shouldn´t be so much removed from RL as to be completely unbelievable. And in this case, it is quite unbelievable, IMHO. In RL Sherlock wouldn´t probably be allowed to be in the same room as Mary, for his own protection - and any sane person would see why. Yet John, after deducing that it was Mary who shot Sherlock and after personally witnessing how she threatens him again, not only allows them to be near each other, but threatens Sherlock with more violence shortly after. I could believe that Sherlock has kind of Stockholm syndrome that prevents him from hating Mary - but why should John endorse that? He is not afflicted in the same way. And if he does it because he sees it as the issue between Mary and Sherlock, or because he doesn´t seem to be blaming people for things that don´t affect him, why should I interpret this behaviour as caring towards Sherlock?

Also, John did blame people for many things that didn´t personally affect him in the past (he reproached Sherlock in ASIP that he doesn´t care for a dead Jennifer Wilson, he reproached him similarily in TGG, he punched the chief-inspector in TRF etc.)... why should I believe he suddenly cares only for things that directly affect him (he only behaves like that in HLV)?

Vhanja wrote:

Of course there is the chance that neither Sherlock nor John have forgiven Mary anything and that they are working together behind the scenes against her. However, I would be a tad disappointed if that happens, simply becuase there is no setup for it in HLV. We don't get any hint that this is the case, and so it would be a reveal out of nowhere.

I disagree that it would come completely out of nowhere.  I think the huge gap between the domestic and Christmas gives us plenty of reason to entertain doubt.   If it turns out that Sherlock and John, and possibly Mycroft have been plotting behind the scenes against Mary the creators can point to that gap and say, now you know why we couldn't show you anything that happened during that time.
 

 I will be deeply disappointed if it turns out she's working for Mycroft.  I cannot imagine Mycroft letting anyone get away with shooting Sherlock.  Although I do think there is much going on with Mycroft that we do not yet know.

Yes, I understand. It would be difficult to swallow and quite against the logic of the show so far. The interesting thing is that much of it depends on the question whether the first plane scene was real or MP. 

Even then, it's only explicitly shown in TAB...which could mean nothing at all!
Sorry, I mean the Victorian Mind Palace!

Last edited by besleybean (May 2, 2016 2:20 pm)

tonnaree wrote:

I disagree that it would come completely out of nowhere.  I think the huge gap between the domestic and Christmas gives us plenty of reason to entertain doubt.   If it turns out that Sherlock and John, and possibly Mycroft have been plotting behind the scenes against Mary the creators can point to that gap and say, now you know why we couldn't show you anything that happened during that time.
 

I don't find a time gap enough of a hint, as you can more or less put anything in there. With Mary being an assassin they deliberately put very small, but very concrete, hints in the episodes that you could pick out later. I don't find a time gap to be that kind of a hint.

As for TAB, I personally believe the first scene of the plane was real, but - as tonnaree - I am open to it being different if the show tells me so later on.

Last edited by Vhanja (May 2, 2016 2:52 pm)

This is all very logical, Liberty, and well explained. But I somehow feel that this does not make for real big drama, does it? They usually go for the big feelings and this is just so … well … ordinary (quoting Anderson). 

As for Sherlock putting himself in the frame with Mary - this is indeed interesting. I always interpreted the scene as John being the object of desire of two people. Which is paralleled by John's remark about neglecting each other which both Mary and Sherlock seem to apply to themselves. 

They can go for big drama in many different ways and directions. What if, for instance, Mary really was trying to lead a normal life, John and her was starting to rebuild their relationship into something that actually worked, they shared their joy over their little daughter - and then someone from Mary's past (Moran? On CAM's or Moriarty's orders?) killed Mary? And maybe even the daughter? Or was going to kill Sherlock or John, and Mary sacrificed herself for them? 

That could be one way to go for the big feelings.

It would certainly fit Moffat that whenever Sherlock or John starts to obtain something that can be described as a happy, stable equilibrium, something horrible happens. So if S4 starts with diapers, pink dresses and fluffy babystuff, I am convinced that is only there as a set-up for the drama and angst that will come. 

I don't see Mary working for Mycroft , what would be the purpose of it ?
I don't see Johns safety being an issue for Mycroft , would that mean Mary married John on Mycrofts orders . I think if Mary was Mycrofts agent she was rather wasting her time on John  . Additionally that would make the secret agent/ assasin in the past a lie and still her job.
Sorry I just hit a confused dead end with Mary working for Mycroft.
I think Sherlock links them in his mp because he sees Mycroft as his archenemy  ( the devil ) .