BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Mary

besleybean · April 18, 2016 4:05 pm

I feel that's kind of a given!

SusiGo · April 18, 2016 4:49 pm

Vhanja wrote:
I think they honestly loved each other before the assassin's reveal. After that, I don't think we really know anymore. They might, they might not. I hope we will learn more about this in S4.

And yet they chose to them at the beginning of HLV not as happy as you would expect a freshly-married couple to be. There is an underlying aggression, a feeling of them not being satisfied with each other.

besleybean · April 18, 2016 4:51 pm

But the team explain this on the commentary: John isn't dissatisfied with Mary, he's bored with being a suburban doctor.

Vhanja · April 18, 2016 5:46 pm

SusiGo wrote:
Vhanja wrote:
I think they honestly loved each other before the assassin's reveal. After that, I don't think we really know anymore. They might, they might not. I hope we will learn more about this in S4.
And yet they chose to them at the beginning of HLV not as happy as you would expect a freshly-married couple to be. There is an underlying aggression, a feeling of them not being satisfied with each other.

From the early scenes of HLV, I got the impression that John was getting grumpy and irritated because of him becoming more and more restless and miserable with the "quiet life". And I can imagine Mary becoming annoyed because John was acting like that, and it became sort of a bad cycle with tension and irritation in the air.

However, in general a married couple can go through rough times and still come out on top on the other side. I love hubby, but I need more than him in my life to be happy. Same with most people, I reckon. So perhaps, in theory, John and Mary could be happy (pre-reveal) if they found the right balance.

Then again, I don't think John could ever be as happy as a married man to Mary (or any other woman) as he was while being Sherlock's flatmate, even if you only consider them as platonic friends.

besleybean · April 18, 2016 5:51 pm

I just find this line of discussion bizarre: can people really not accept John found the love of his life?
Do people not believe the beautiful Xmas reconciliation?

mrshouse · April 18, 2016 5:56 pm

Vhanja wrote:
However, in general a married couple can go through rough times and still come out on top on the other side. I love hubby, but I need more than him in my life to be happy. Same with most people, I reckon. So perhaps, in theory, John and Mary could be happy (pre-reveal) if they found the right balance.

True. But after one month of marriage? And that followed a romance of maybe half a year as far as we know. Plus not being the youngest couple anymore they're relatively fresh pregnant. Not exactly relationship goal if you ask me.

Vhanja wrote:
Then again, I don't think John could ever be as happy as a married man to Mary (or any other woman) as he was while being Sherlock's flatmate, even if you only consider them as platonic friends.

Yes! Where can I sign this?

mrshouse · April 18, 2016 6:01 pm

Besley, I'm sorry, I think we have very different opinions on how "love of life" looks like. The Christmas reconciliation was one of the worst scenes in whole S3.
Why do I have to believe this but not Sherlock's tears on the roof top?

SolarSystem · April 18, 2016 6:32 pm

besleybean wrote:
I just find this line of discussion bizarre: can people really not accept John found the love of his life?

I could accept it if I saw it on screen. But I'm neither seeing nor feeling it. It remains a claim, nothing more.

besleybean wrote:
Do people not believe the beautiful Xmas reconciliation?

I can only speak for myself: No. Again, I'm not seeing it on screen. Whatever it is, it's not beautiful and it doesn't feel genuine. If it does to other people, so be it.

besleybean · April 18, 2016 6:33 pm

I am still concerned that some fans are going to be baffled, when they see John broken, on losing the love of his life.

SolarSystem · April 18, 2016 6:36 pm

No need for that.

Vhanja · April 18, 2016 6:37 pm

besleybean wrote:
I just find this line of discussion bizarre: can people really not accept John found the love of his life?
Do people not believe the beautiful Xmas reconciliation?

For three reasons:

1. I don't see the reconciliation scene as John having forgiven Mary. I see it as John telling Mary that he has decided to start the process of forgiving her. I see it that way because of how John is and what he says. He says that he is still "basically pissed off" with her and that "it will come out now and again". That, to me, tells me that he hasn't forgiven her, but that he wants to try and start the process. Plus the fact that I don't think he even smiles at her once during that scene. He doesn't seem happy, he seems determined. Which also strengthen my belief about how I view the scene. Thus, having decided to try and forgive her, we - or even John and Mary - doesn't know if it will work or not.

2. We see in the start of HLV how John, after a month of marriage, is restless and irritable. He doesn't seem like a man who is greatly enjoying his newly-wed life. (A stark contrast to the shaving scene in TEH, where they seem geniunly happy together - my favorite romantic John and Mary scene).

3. After the reconciliation scene, there is not one single scene showing any kind of happiness between them. (Again - refer back to the shaving scene, which established them as being in a good place). Of course, that can also be explained in that there weren't really room, pace-wise, for any sudden warm and romantic fluff scene after that. However, just a John and Mary comforting each other with a smile and a hug when watching Sherlock fly off would help.

None of this is proof that Mary isn't the love of John's life. But all of this makes me question whether she still is. And I reckon S4 will let us know. Or so I hope.

besleybean · April 18, 2016 6:38 pm

It would be rather strange if it didn't.

SolarSystem · April 18, 2016 6:41 pm

besleybean wrote:
It would be rather strange if it didn't.

Well, same concern here about people being baffled when they realize that some of the things we saw in HLV haven't been what they seemed to be.

besleybean · April 18, 2016 6:47 pm

Sorry, that made me laugh.
It's almost like we're all speaking in code to each other. Ha.

But anyway, thinking about what I said before...
Thing is it's a bit like Johnlock, people will always see what they want to and some will take no convincing, even if the proof was hand delivered by Moses on tablets of stone!
But practically, Mary may not actually be around long enough, for some to make a final decision for themselves.
But then again, what am I saying?
If we see a broken John, I will be unsettled if people don't finally accept.

Vhanja · April 18, 2016 6:49 pm

If we are shown that they do love each other, of course I will accept it. Until then, I remain sceptial for the reasons I've posted above. However, I am not claiming for sure that he doens't love her - or that he does. Because I don't know yet.

SolarSystem · April 18, 2016 7:03 pm

besleybean wrote:
But anyway, thinking about what I said before...
Thing is it's a bit like Johnlock, people will always see what they want to and some will take no convincing, even if the proof was hand delivered by Moses on tablets of stone!

You know, Moses can hand deliver to me whatever he wants. As long as I don't see it on screen, it doesn't work for me. This doesn't have anything to do with believing or not believing what somebody is saying. It has to do with what is shown on screen. Because when I studied film at university, nobody told me that in order to do film or television interpretation I'd need Moses to hand deliver any proof to me on tablets of stone. I was told that I have to observe what is shown to me on screen. Nothing more, nothing less.

besleybean · April 18, 2016 7:05 pm

But how do we account for people seeing different things?

Vhanja · April 18, 2016 7:15 pm

besleybean wrote:
But how do we account for people seeing different things?

Because people view the show through their own filter, with their own experiences, background and personality colouring their view. That goes for all of us.

besleybean · April 18, 2016 7:16 pm

So it's not about what we are shown, then?

Vhanja · April 18, 2016 7:16 pm

It's a combination.