BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Mary

besleybean · April 17, 2016 4:19 pm

You could of course be right...
Certainly mirrors what happened with Moriarty...
Do we think Mary is the new Moriarty?
That's the bit I'm not sure of.
Still for me, if we have another big reveal, it negates the first one.
Also, there has been the hint that Mary works for Mycroft, but I'm not certain on that one.

But Mycroft seemed to be trying to warn Sherlock off CAM, did he ever do this with regards to Moriarty?
Possibly Mycrfoft was prepared to sacrifice Mary, over his brother?

Last edited by besleybean (April 17, 2016 4:21 pm)

tonnaree · April 17, 2016 4:24 pm

Sherlock hates CAM for who he is and what he does long before John and Mary become involved in the case. Having John threatened was just the last straw.

We all seem to agree to some extent that Sherlock shot CAM to keep John safe by keeping Mary safe. Why would he have done this if he thought Mary was a danger to John? If Mary is a danger to John that gives him even more reason. They're are people in the world who want Mary dead. If they were to come after her John would also be in danger.

BB, so you are horrified at the thought of Sherlock murdering CAM but are ok if Mary had done it?

besleybean · April 17, 2016 4:27 pm

No, quite the opposite.
I am horrified that either of them did it.
But I get the feeling on here some people think it horrendous that Mary nearly killed Sherlock, but perfectly fine that Sherlock murdered CAM.

Incidentally, I'm still not totally accepting Mycroft was almost commisisoning Sherlock to dispose of CAM.
Again, this would negate the beautiful scene of him seeing Sherlock as a little boy and issuing the heartfelt: Sherlock, what have you done?
Unless he was just referring to him doing it with witnesses.
But we know Sherlock did this to protect John.
This of course mirrors Mary not wanting John to be implicated in CAM's office.

Last edited by besleybean (April 17, 2016 4:32 pm)

Lola Red · April 17, 2016 4:37 pm

Vhanja wrote:
I never really liked the idea about John being drawn to Mary "because that is what he likes". It sounds as if John has this "danger radar" superhero skill.

And, of course, because it's used as victim blaming.

can you elaborate on this?
I always felt that John likes to see himself as the sane man, but he is everything but. When he first meets Mycroft, we learn that his PTSD is not due to the trauma of having been in a war, but of having to leave it behind (also "I said dangerous, and here you are"). I think it is the danger that attracts him to Sherlock. In my mind it made sense, that, with Sherlock gone, he would (unconsciously) find another source of danger in his life. I do, btw, not think that John is aware of any of this, I do not think it ever occurred to him that his nightmares or the pain in his leg were due to not being in mortal danger on a regular basis. I would even go so far as to say that John, in a weird way, could be much more happy being married to Mary the assassin, than he was was being married to Mary the nurse (see the beginning of HLV).

Lola Red · April 17, 2016 5:01 pm

I am a bit undecided on Mycroft and CAM, one the one side there is CAM telling Sherlock that Mycroft is after him, on the other side there is Mycroft’s shocked reaction when Sherlock kills CAM.
If Mary does indeed work for Mycroft, it might be that he has originally send her to take out CAM to make sure that Sherlock would not have to do it. If we accept Sherlock’s explanation of the shooting, than Mary might have resolved the situation with “the least damage possible” by shooting down Sherlock (but not in the head). It would explain why Mycroft did not go after Mary. Even if Mary and Sherlock would have been able to conceal the truth from Mycroft, one look at John and he could have probably deduced what happened.
But that still does not explain what happened that Christmas. Could be Mycroft and Sherlock scheming and basically communicating in code:
“I’ve put the thing you need right here on the kitchen table little brother”
“I have finally found a way out little brother. Go slay your dragon. I will not let any harm come to you.”
But then why is Mycroft so shocked when Sherlock shoots CAM ?

besleybean · April 17, 2016 5:04 pm

So was Mary sent to dispatch of CAM, or did she do it off her own back?
And yes, Mycroft doesn't seem to consider her a danger.

Liberty · April 17, 2016 5:27 pm

Possibly, Mycroft expected John (not Sherlock) to kill CAM, and was willing to sacrifice him. (John was the one with the gun, the one who was known to have killed when somebody he cared about was under threat, and whose wife was the one in danger). Unfortunately he reckoned without Sherlock's emotions getting in the way (as usual!), causing him to shoot CAM and take the blame (to protect John) before John could think of it.

(This is just a wild idea - not sure if I'm buying it myself at the moment).

Last edited by Liberty (April 17, 2016 5:36 pm)

besleybean · April 17, 2016 5:30 pm

I was also wondering if Mycroft brought Sherlock back, because he realised Mary was a danger?
I'm just not sure of any of it, but I don't think Mary will turn out to be a villain.

Lola Red · April 17, 2016 5:45 pm

Do you mean at the beginning of TEH? Bringing him back from Serbia? Maybe, but why not warn him then? Seems like adding Sherlock to the mix rather increased the danger, Mary had nothing to do with Mycroft before. Or do you think that Mycroft continuously connected himself with Mary (maybe even consciously completing CAM's pressure point chain)?

Lola Red · April 17, 2016 5:47 pm

Liberty wrote:
Possibly, Mycroft expected John (not Sherlock) to kill CAM, and was willing to sacrifice him. (John was the one with the gun, the one who was known to have killed when somebody he cared about was under threat, and whose wife was the one in danger). Unfortunately he reckoned without Sherlock's emotions getting in the way (as usual!), causing him to shoot CAM and take the blame (to protect John) before John could think of it.

(This is just a wild idea - not sure if I'm buying it myself at the moment).

I kind of like your wild idea

Mothonthemantel · April 17, 2016 6:39 pm

Sherlock thought Mary might be a threat to John only until he discovered she shot to keep John. After that he realised the danger from Mary was to those that threatened her marriage.
Which makes confusion as to why she Shot Sherlock instead of Magnussen, she had no reason to shoot Sherlock rather than trust him.

@yes Liberty I think Mycroft assumed John would have the gun and do the shooting too.

Last edited by Mothonthemantel (April 17, 2016 6:41 pm)

besleybean · April 17, 2016 6:46 pm

She couldn't shoot CAM, cos John would be a suspect.

Oh and I meant Mycroft bringing Sherlock back from exile

Mothonthemantel · April 17, 2016 10:24 pm

Thats nonsense. John and Sherlock are often suspects . You need evidence to convict and there was none . John wasn't even armed and they didn't even break in , they were invited.

besleybean · April 18, 2016 5:42 am

I'm sure you didn't mean to describe my post as nonsense? (Ha! ) and I was only referring to what Sherlock said.
He said that once Mary knew John was in the building, she couldn't shoot CAM 'because her own husband would be a suspect'.

Last edited by besleybean (April 18, 2016 5:43 am)

Mothonthemantel · April 18, 2016 9:48 am

Yes and it's complete nonsense - Sherlocks - as is Mary phoning an ambulance and putting herself on scene - for lots of reasons already covered in the thread.
I suppose it could be a bit of a stupid plot hole and the writers didn't think it through.

Vhanja · April 18, 2016 10:02 am

Lola Red wrote:
Vhanja wrote:
I never really liked the idea about John being drawn to Mary "because that is what he likes". It sounds as if John has this "danger radar" superhero skill.

And, of course, because it's used as victim blaming.
can you elaborate on this?
I always felt that John likes to see himself as the sane man, but he is everything but. When he first meets Mycroft, we learn that his PTSD is not due to the trauma of having been in a war, but of having to leave it behind (also "I said dangerous, and here you are"). I think it is the danger that attracts him to Sherlock. In my mind it made sense, that, with Sherlock gone, he would (unconsciously) find another source of danger in his life. I do, btw, not think that John is aware of any of this, I do not think it ever occurred to him that his nightmares or the pain in his leg were due to not being in mortal danger on a regular basis. I would even go so far as to say that John, in a weird way, could be much more happy being married to Mary the assassin, than he was was being married to Mary the nurse (see the beginning of HLV).

Oh, I agree that John is drawn to danger, there is no doubt about it. And I also agree that the danger and the thrill was probably a large part of why he agreed to share a flat with Sherlock.

But with Sherlock the danger was obvious - he joined a murder investigation, ran all over London and shot a guy on their second day together.

Mary, however, was a - to him - regular nurse. I just don't believe in the possibility of him "picking up" something of her unconsciously. That he was attracted to her because he unconsciously felt/knew that she was dangerous or liked danger too. It sounds too "magical" to me.

Also because I think John - more or less consciously - wanted to try a regular, normal life after Sherlock "died". Sherlock was everything he liked in his life, and with Sherlock gone, he wanted to distance himself from everything that could remind him of his previous life (danger, excitement, thrill...) because it was too painful. So he went for the normal life - job, wife, house in the suburb...

So he was drawn to Mary because she was NOT like Sherlock. She was warm, caring, normal, understanding - everything he needed at that time of life. ("She wasn't supposed to be like that!").

Or that is my very subjective interpretation of it, anyway.

nakahara · April 18, 2016 10:30 am

Sherlock was not always cold, uncaring, abnormal and dense. John would have not reason to stay with him, if he was. So I don´t think he deliberately chose somebody to make a statement that he distances himself from Sherlock´s character traits now. He was also fond of Sherlock´s memory. It would be weird to symbolically "throw away" Sherlock´s legacy like that.

I think it was simpler. He made acquantances with a woman who seemed to like him and was willing to share his life with him and so he chose her as his life-partner to escape loneliness - regardless of her actual character traits.

Also, John was clearly unhappy living as a "normal" person at the beginning of ASIP. Would he deliberately choose the same unhappy life for himself again, this time with a woman at his side? Seeing him all disgruntled in ASIP and HLV, I am very puzzled over his attitude "she was not supposed to be like that..." I regard this more as a pose than an actual John´s wish.

Vhanja · April 18, 2016 10:37 am

I don't mean that Sherlock wasn't caring. But that in a romantic relationship with a woman he could get what he couldn't with Sherlock - a hug, a caress. Physical caring and closeness, affection. Whether we believe they secretly wanted that (Johnlock) or not, that is not the kind of relationship Sherlock and John had.

And I think in John's vulnerable state of grief, that is what he sought. Something "simpler" and easier. Something that didn't remind him of his old life.

Of course, as we see in HLV, he isn't happy with that kind of life. I think that is clearer when Sherlock has returned. I think that made it worse, made it even clearer to John that he wasn't happy with that kind of "normal" life. But I think his emotional state when he met Mary was very different, and she was - back then - what he needed and wanted. Or to put it differently: What he wanted to want.

And I view his statement completely the opposite - I think this is the most honest we've ever seen John. That line is filled with pain, it's to me the most painful and raw statement in the entire show.

besleybean · April 18, 2016 3:59 pm

Yes, because of Canon and the team's love of Canon, I have difficulty thinking that John and Mary don't really love each other an on screen I see a 'together', modern couple...keeping it real.

Vhanja · April 18, 2016 4:03 pm

I think they honestly loved each other before the assassin's reveal. After that, I don't think we really know anymore. They might, they might not. I hope we will learn more about this in S4.