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April 15, 2016 10:12 pm  #3181


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Ha!
 

 

April 16, 2016 7:54 pm  #3182


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

SusiGo wrote:

Every time we can see into Sherlock's head, Mary is presented in a less than nice way to put it mildly: 

- That wife!
- The Mary Watson, who are you? deduction? 
- The whole of TAB

There is a marked contrast between the way Sherlock sees her in his own mind and the way he behaves towards her. It seems reasonable to conclude that his personal opinion about her differs from what he shows when other people are present. 

I do not think TAB is the clearest example, because you can read it very differently, according to which filter you use. Is Mary pushing herself between the boys or does she want the same opportunities in life than the men? Does she go after an organisation with an honourable cause or after a death cult? etc. Also basically the whole episode is in his head, so I would argue that there is no clear line between what he says and what he thinks.

I agree that he was worried about the potential danger that Mary could pose before the reveal in Leinster Gardens, but I have not seen the same worry since. Still, I have been wrong before, so I will not claim that my opinion is any closer to the truth that anyone else's. 


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We balance probabilities and choose the most likely. It is the scientific use of the imagination.    
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April 16, 2016 7:55 pm  #3183


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

I just can't see Sherlock leaving John with Mary, if he thinks John's in danger.


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April 16, 2016 8:24 pm  #3184


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Me neither. I personally still believe that any threat that Mary might have posed was eliminated at Leinster Gardens (see my posts at the very beginning of this topc) , But apparently there are other ways to read the whole affair, though I am lacking the right filter for that. But Sherlock trusting Mary enough to leave her with John for me seems to point strongly into the direction that Sherlock does indeed trust her now. Hence my filter.

Last edited by Lola Red (April 16, 2016 8:25 pm)


****************************************************************************************************************************************
We balance probabilities and choose the most likely. It is the scientific use of the imagination.    
     Thread Starter
 

April 16, 2016 8:31 pm  #3185


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Well filter's one way of putting it.
For me it's what we've been shown in the series, coupled with what the team have said in commentary.
TAB does add a slightly different dimension.
Most importantly for me, S4 is now being filmed and by all indications something major is gonna happen.
Whether that involves Mary doing something horrendous...I just can't see the team going there, so far from Canon.
Definitely something tragic happening to her is on the cards.
Why and how are whole other questions.
But I believe we will see a devastated John.


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April 16, 2016 9:35 pm  #3186


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

"also the most important part about john’s attraction to danger is if it’s for a good cause. he’s willing to get into risky situations if he knows it’s worth something. and it’s why he’s so unhappy with mary. it’s not enough that she’s dangerous, she has to be good too… which she isn’t."
http://mokee.tumblr.com/post/142909736301/also-the-most-important-part-about-johns


Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.   Independent OSAJ Affiliate

... but there may be some new players now. It’s okay. The East Wind takes us all in the end.
 

April 16, 2016 9:39 pm  #3187


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

It's a well documented fact that John is attracted to danger and after all that's what attracts him to Mary.
But where do we see him being unhappy with her?
If he's decided to only stay with her for the sake of the child, it may not be a very happy home to raise a healthy child in.
Even if is unhappy, I wonder if he'll regret this?
We'll soon know of course, when we see how devastated he is at her loss.


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April 16, 2016 9:43 pm  #3188


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

So he could be attracted to Moriarty even, if that's all John needs.


Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.   Independent OSAJ Affiliate

... but there may be some new players now. It’s okay. The East Wind takes us all in the end.
 

April 16, 2016 9:46 pm  #3189


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Well yes, apart from the facts that Moriarty is male and perceived as a baddie. Oh and he may also be dead.
Mary is female and has been forgiven by Sherlock and John. She's alive at the moment!
 


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April 16, 2016 9:55 pm  #3190


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Well, you said that John is attracted by danger and that danger was what brought him to Mary.
Not her t**s or her good character. But if you tell us that being a women, alive and forgiven is enough for John Moral Compass Watson, I doubt that.


Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.   Independent OSAJ Affiliate

... but there may be some new players now. It’s okay. The East Wind takes us all in the end.
 

April 16, 2016 9:58 pm  #3191


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

But it's not about us.
It's about John and Mary.
Heck, Sherlock recognises that.
He committed murder and was willing to give up John, to make John happy, being safe with Mary.


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April 16, 2016 10:41 pm  #3192


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

besleybean wrote:

Well filter's one way of putting it.
For me it's what we've been shown in the series, coupled with what the team have said in commentary.
TAB does add a slightly different dimension.
Most importantly for me, S4 is now being filmed and by all indications something major is gonna happen.
Whether that involves Mary doing something horrendous...I just can't see the team going there, so far from Canon.
Definitely something tragic happening to her is on the cards.
Why and how are whole other questions.
But I believe we will see a devastated John.

I believe you're right.  And it's entirely possible that John will be facing his own death as well (although he won't be killed off, thankfully!).  Time will tell, of course.
 

 

April 16, 2016 11:39 pm  #3193


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

The problem with Mary / John post HLV revelations is that the writers spent every episode previously  having John act as a moral compass pointing out every morally dubious and wrong thing Sherlock did . John s role is as a guide for Sherlock to becoming a good man .
How then can we accept John has no problem being married to Mary who is morally bankrupt .

I do not see how that paradoxical and hypocriticalJohn can ever say not good to say - a criminal serial killer - let alone Sherlock again . The whole Holmes Watson dynamic is compromised by Mary .


"Man may not be degraded  to being a machine by being denied to be a ghost in the machine."
It's just transport. The virus in the hard drive . However impossible .Must be the truth.
 

April 17, 2016 6:09 am  #3194


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

I'm never quite sure about the moral compass thing.  Sherlock's morals might be a bit different to other people's, but they definitely seem to be present and correct.   John's intervention seems to be less about morals and more about social niceties sometimes (and even then, Sherlock can be more socially skilled than expected at times, and John perhaps less so). 

I think that while John wouldn't consciously follow an evil path, whatever it is that draws him to danger and adventure is morally neutral - it's more instinctive.   Sherlock's argument is that he was drawn to Mary because of who she was, despite not knowing who she was.   As for whether she truly is good or evil or somewhere in between - we don't really know yet.  (I don't agree that she's presented as a serial killer).    We do know that John is used to an occupation where killing people can be part of the job, and that maybe influences his view (i.e. makes him more forgiving of somebody who has a jot which involves killing).   And he may have more information than us, either way (I'm intrigued by the idea that we might get flashbacks to the time in HLV before John forgives).   John does often accept Sherlock's judgment while having very little information himself, and it's possible that he's happy to do the same in Mary's case. 

 

April 17, 2016 2:52 pm  #3195


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

I never really liked the idea about John being drawn to Mary "because that is what he likes". It sounds as if John has this "danger radar" superhero skill. 

And, of course, because it's used as victim blaming.


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April 17, 2016 2:58 pm  #3196


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

I don't see John in any way as a victim.
What I really don't get(and maybe this needs to be in other threads, too), is how other people reconcile to themselves, why Sherlock did what he did.
For me: he murdered and was prepared for(at least) a life sentence, just to make John happy by making Mary safe. Why would he do this if he thought John didn't really love Mary and if he thought Mary was in any way dangerous?
I will also repeat: it would have saved everyone a lot of heartache, if Mary had been left to get on with doing away with CAM.
Possibly this is what she was sent to do...maybe even by Mycroft.


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April 17, 2016 3:42 pm  #3197


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

I think Sherlock shooting Magnussen was more about protecting Mycroft and the country that Magnussen was trying to take over than simply Mary . It woud have been more logical to discover Marys past and who Magnussen might send after her - the people that hate her - and protect / hide Mary from them .
Magnussen did not care about Mary or Sherlock only Mycroft .
It came across to me that Sherlock just hated Magnussen and everything he stood for and everyone he had hurt even before he knew about Mary and was determined to stop him.

@Liberty , I did not mean to imply Mary as the serial killer in question , rather the ones John and Sherlock may go after in the future making them hypocrites.


"Man may not be degraded  to being a machine by being denied to be a ghost in the machine."
It's just transport. The virus in the hard drive . However impossible .Must be the truth.
 

April 17, 2016 3:54 pm  #3198


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Thanks for the clarification, Moth and sorry that I misinterpreted what you said! I understand now. 

@ Vhanja, I agree that making it John's fault that he was drawn to Mary is very unfair.  I don't he was consciously at all, but I do think it's possible that he sensed something about her that attracted him.  He wouldn't have been so drawn to an ordinary person - his previous relationships are a bit half-hearted.  I think at that point, as well, Sherlock seems to be trying to say the right things to get them to the next stage before he collapses.

 

April 17, 2016 3:56 pm  #3199


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

So when Sherlock checks with John, just before he kills CAM, he was lying?
His tears and distressed looks at John(when being tormented by CAM) meant nothing?
I remember what The Boss wrote when she first responded to Sherlock murdering CAM: let none of us be under any illusion, Sherlock did this for John and John alone....
I agree with her and he did it for John, by making Mary safe.

Liberty: I don't see anyhting wrong with John falling for Mary, so I don't see it as his 'fault' in any sense.

Last edited by besleybean (April 17, 2016 3:58 pm)


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April 17, 2016 4:15 pm  #3200


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Besley. I think Mycroft and Sherlock knew killing Magnussen may be necessary.  Mycroft calls Sherlock a dragonslayer just before the event and knows the punch is drugged and Sherlock was sure to take the gun. Probably Mycroft mentioning the eastern europe job was understood as a consequence. Seems fairly obvious that conversation is pre-planning and fore-shadowing. Mycroft and Sherlock play their own game and they are drama queens.


"Man may not be degraded  to being a machine by being denied to be a ghost in the machine."
It's just transport. The virus in the hard drive . However impossible .Must be the truth.
 

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