SusiGo wrote:

Every time we can see into Sherlock's head, Mary is presented in a less than nice way to put it mildly: 

- That wife!
- The Mary Watson, who are you? deduction? 
- The whole of TAB

There is a marked contrast between the way Sherlock sees her in his own mind and the way he behaves towards her. It seems reasonable to conclude that his personal opinion about her differs from what he shows when other people are present. 

I do not think TAB is the clearest example, because you can read it very differently, according to which filter you use. Is Mary pushing herself between the boys or does she want the same opportunities in life than the men? Does she go after an organisation with an honourable cause or after a death cult? etc. Also basically the whole episode is in his head, so I would argue that there is no clear line between what he says and what he thinks.

I agree that he was worried about the potential danger that Mary could pose before the reveal in Leinster Gardens, but I have not seen the same worry since. Still, I have been wrong before, so I will not claim that my opinion is any closer to the truth that anyone else's. 

Me neither. I personally still believe that any threat that Mary might have posed was eliminated at Leinster Gardens (see my posts at the very beginning of this topc) , But apparently there are other ways to read the whole affair, though I am lacking the right filter for that. But Sherlock trusting Mary enough to leave her with John for me seems to point strongly into the direction that Sherlock does indeed trust her now. Hence my filter.

Last edited by Lola Red (April 16, 2016 8:25 pm)

"also the most important part about john’s attraction to danger is if it’s for a good cause. he’s willing to get into risky situations if he knows it’s worth something. and it’s why he’s so unhappy with mary. it’s not enough that she’s dangerous, she has to be good too… which she isn’t."
http://mokee.tumblr.com/post/142909736301/also-the-most-important-part-about-johns

So he could be attracted to Moriarty even, if that's all John needs.

Well, you said that John is attracted by danger and that danger was what brought him to Mary.
Not her t**s or her good character. But if you tell us that being a women, alive and forgiven is enough for John Moral Compass Watson, I doubt that.

besleybean wrote:

Well filter's one way of putting it.
For me it's what we've been shown in the series, coupled with what the team have said in commentary.
TAB does add a slightly different dimension.
Most importantly for me, S4 is now being filmed and by all indications something major is gonna happen.
Whether that involves Mary doing something horrendous...I just can't see the team going there, so far from Canon.
Definitely something tragic happening to her is on the cards.
Why and how are whole other questions.
But I believe we will see a devastated John.

I believe you're right.  And it's entirely possible that John will be facing his own death as well (although he won't be killed off, thankfully!).  Time will tell, of course.
 

I'm never quite sure about the moral compass thing.  Sherlock's morals might be a bit different to other people's, but they definitely seem to be present and correct.   John's intervention seems to be less about morals and more about social niceties sometimes (and even then, Sherlock can be more socially skilled than expected at times, and John perhaps less so). 

I think that while John wouldn't consciously follow an evil path, whatever it is that draws him to danger and adventure is morally neutral - it's more instinctive.   Sherlock's argument is that he was drawn to Mary because of who she was, despite not knowing who she was.   As for whether she truly is good or evil or somewhere in between - we don't really know yet.  (I don't agree that she's presented as a serial killer).    We do know that John is used to an occupation where killing people can be part of the job, and that maybe influences his view (i.e. makes him more forgiving of somebody who has a jot which involves killing).   And he may have more information than us, either way (I'm intrigued by the idea that we might get flashbacks to the time in HLV before John forgives).   John does often accept Sherlock's judgment while having very little information himself, and it's possible that he's happy to do the same in Mary's case. 

I don't see John in any way as a victim.
What I really don't get(and maybe this needs to be in other threads, too), is how other people reconcile to themselves, why Sherlock did what he did.
For me: he murdered and was prepared for(at least) a life sentence, just to make John happy by making Mary safe. Why would he do this if he thought John didn't really love Mary and if he thought Mary was in any way dangerous?
I will also repeat: it would have saved everyone a lot of heartache, if Mary had been left to get on with doing away with CAM.
Possibly this is what she was sent to do...maybe even by Mycroft.

Thanks for the clarification, Moth and sorry that I misinterpreted what you said! I understand now. 

@ Vhanja, I agree that making it John's fault that he was drawn to Mary is very unfair.  I don't he was consciously at all, but I do think it's possible that he sensed something about her that attracted him.  He wouldn't have been so drawn to an ordinary person - his previous relationships are a bit half-hearted.  I think at that point, as well, Sherlock seems to be trying to say the right things to get them to the next stage before he collapses.

Besley. I think Mycroft and Sherlock knew killing Magnussen may be necessary.  Mycroft calls Sherlock a dragonslayer just before the event and knows the punch is drugged and Sherlock was sure to take the gun. Probably Mycroft mentioning the eastern europe job was understood as a consequence. Seems fairly obvious that conversation is pre-planning and fore-shadowing. Mycroft and Sherlock play their own game and they are drama queens.