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April 11, 2016 8:43 pm  #3081


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

I think we should distinguish between Canon and the show. Harriet's quote was from Canon, as were yours and mine. 
 


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

April 11, 2016 8:44 pm  #3082


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

This is canon, so blame ACD. However, it doesn't say anything about hate.

Edit: cross

Last edited by Harriet (April 11, 2016 8:45 pm)


Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.   Independent OSAJ Affiliate

... but there may be some new players now. It’s okay. The East Wind takes us all in the end.
 

April 11, 2016 8:44 pm  #3083


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Er, Harriet asked me for a Canon ref.
I feel this is the line BBC Sherlock are taking with Mary.


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

April 11, 2016 8:45 pm  #3084


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

No, it is not. Because in Canon Mary Morstan was a friendly and clever governess, if I remember correctly, not a trained assassin. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

April 11, 2016 8:46 pm  #3085


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Er, I haven't asked you anything.


Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.   Independent OSAJ Affiliate

... but there may be some new players now. It’s okay. The East Wind takes us all in the end.
 

April 11, 2016 8:47 pm  #3086


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

And Molly wasn't in Canon at all...so where are we going with this?


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

April 11, 2016 8:47 pm  #3087


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

SusiGo wrote:

No, she did not. The only thing she did was go to Sherlock. It was him who stopped the motorcycle, drove it, made his way through the crowd, and dug his own hands in the fire to pull John out. If you take a look at the scene you will see that Mary is just standing there, calling John's name. She does not actively participate in the action. Which is confirmed again at Appledore when Magnussen talks about Sherlock saving his "damsel in distress". 

 


That may be, but it was Mary who got the message to Sherlock as soon as she got it.  And she rode on the motorcycle with Sherlock to John's rescue.

 

April 11, 2016 8:48 pm  #3088


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Oh and sorry, Harriet.


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

April 11, 2016 8:51 pm  #3089


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

kgreen20 wrote:

SusiGo wrote:

No, she did not. The only thing she did was go to Sherlock. It was him who stopped the motorcycle, drove it, made his way through the crowd, and dug his own hands in the fire to pull John out. If you take a look at the scene you will see that Mary is just standing there, calling John's name. She does not actively participate in the action. Which is confirmed again at Appledore when Magnussen talks about Sherlock saving his "damsel in distress". 

 
That may be, but it was Mary who got the message to Sherlock as soon as she got it. And she rode on the motorcycle with Sherlock to John's rescue.

I am not sure that this is sufficient to balance her flaws. Especially if you compare it to what Sherlock does for John (and Mary). 
 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

April 11, 2016 8:53 pm  #3090


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

kgreen20 wrote:

SusiGo wrote:

No, she did not. The only thing she did was go to Sherlock. It was him who stopped the motorcycle, drove it, made his way through the crowd, and dug his own hands in the fire to pull John out. If you take a look at the scene you will see that Mary is just standing there, calling John's name. She does not actively participate in the action. Which is confirmed again at Appledore when Magnussen talks about Sherlock saving his "damsel in distress". 

That may be, but it was Mary who got the message to Sherlock as soon as she got it.  And she rode on the motorcycle with Sherlock to John's rescue.

I'm impressed how she helped saving her fiancée 

Edit: oh, cross, again
 

Last edited by Harriet (April 11, 2016 8:53 pm)


Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.   Independent OSAJ Affiliate

... but there may be some new players now. It’s okay. The East Wind takes us all in the end.
 

April 11, 2016 8:54 pm  #3091


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Nobody's denying she's a flawed character.
But personally I don't see the point of that beautiful Christmas reunion, if it turns out to mean nothing.
The whole impact of Mary's original reveal just loses total impact, if we get more that negates this reconciliation.
This doesn't rule out her working for Mycroft, for instance.


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

April 11, 2016 8:57 pm  #3092


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

She might be working for Mycroft which would explain his strange silence about Sherlock as good as being killed. And it would be, at least for me, a terrible act of betrayal. 


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

April 11, 2016 8:59 pm  #3093


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

SusiGo wrote:

a) No one called Sherlock a random hobo. Are you saying he should have stayed the way he was when he met John? A reasoning machine without deeper feelings? Not what I would care to see. 

That question should probably be aimed at another person because I never saw Sherlock as a reasoning machine without deeper feelings? Did you consider him to be one before S3 was aired? Personally, his behaviour to John, Angelo and Mrs. Hudson persuaded me right away that deep down Sherlock is a nice man, but that he has a prickly exterior towards people who bully him, envious of his intelligence (like Sally Donovan or Sebastian Wilkes). So if he developed as a character in a more subtle manner, I would be quite content with that. Nothing against TSOT, but I could do without Sherlock folding napkin origami or without Sherlock being drunk as a lord and I would still be persuaded he can do emotions.

SusiGo wrote:

b) I cannot remember a single episode without a shred of detecting.

Yet to me, it seems Sherlock´s detective skills are rapidly diminishing.
Examples: In ASIP, Sherlock investigates the death of Jennifer Wilson. We see what he sees (his deductions appear in front of our eyes), then he explains his findings in an ingenious manner.
In more recent TAB, Sherlock enters the flat where the lord was stabbed to death. And... nothing. We see no deductions floating in the air. He sees some bloody tracks but doesn´t explain his findings and never makes his opinion on the case known. Probably because he has no any.

Another example: In ASIB, Sherlock calls Mycroft a queen, later annoys him by fiddling "God Save the Queen" on his violin, meanwhile he deduces he is being led to the Buckingham Palace on the fact that three corgies were in the vicinity of a sinister guards.
In TSOT, Sherlock suddenly doesn´t remember that no king of England exists.

Add to this the various recent Mofftiss claims like "Everybody is cleverer than Sherlock" (from the HVL commentary), Moffat´s claim that Sherlock is mediocre, Moffat´s claim that "Sherlock just pretends detecting" (you cited that in your pevious post) or his assertion that "Mary is the professional, Sherlock and John are just bumbling amateurs"... and to me this seems rather like a decontruction of the hero, not his development. Development should mean the increase of the character´s skill, not him being stripped and deprived of them.

SusiGo wrote:

c) Nobody has sworn what is going to happen and neither have I. This would be quite presumptuous. I am saying that based on what we have seen so far and what we have heard from the team this is not going to be a romcom slash family show. And I have no reason not to believe them. 

I too hope this would not develop into a family drama or a romcom, that´s why I voiced my opinion that it would be better if the author´s avoided another bout of Watson´s marriage crisis or anything in which Mary plays a prominent role and it´s not a case. Of course I can only speak for myself, but Mary´s character bores me to tears. Centering on her again would just steal time authors could dedicate to John´s and Sherlock´s relationship. And I still think it would be most natural if they bonded again while doing cases together.

SusiGo wrote:

This is not Granada Holmes. This is not an episodic, case-centred show but a long, overarching narrative with characters developing, not remaining static.

I was aware that we are speaking about BBC version. Can I point out that we had characters developing also in S1 and S2 and yet that development went hand-to-hand with cases in harmonious ballance? These things are not mutually exclusive + Sherlock´s character makes most sense when he is immersed in what he does best. A random gardener, fire-fighter and the like can take his place when he is stripped of cases - and this show still titles itself "a show about a detective".

Sorry, if you find my opinions annoying, but I would rather voice my thoughts with sincerity than pretend the artificial perkiness I don´t feel. I joined the forum to share my joys or doubts and that would be rather impossible if I held my opinions to myself.


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I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

 

April 11, 2016 8:59 pm  #3094


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

But  not quite as bad as either being revealed as an assassin or nearly murdering your best friend?
John seems to have dealt with  both of those.


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

April 11, 2016 9:13 pm  #3095


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

nakahara wrote:

Sorry, if you find my opinions annoying, but I would rather voice my thoughts with sincerity than pretend the artificial perkiness I don´t feel. I joined the forum to share my joys or doubts and that would be rather impossible if I held my opinions to myself.

Please do not put words in my mouth I have not said. And please do not call other people's attitudes artificial. We have discussed our differing opinions, that is all. 
 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

April 11, 2016 9:37 pm  #3096


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

nakahara wrote:

Sorry, if you find my opinions annoying, but I would rather voice my thoughts with sincerity than pretend the artificial perkiness I don´t feel. I joined the forum to share my joys or doubts and that would be rather impossible if I held my opinions to myself.

Pls stay down to earth, nakahara. I hope you don't assume pretension of artificial perkiness with any of us, otherwise some might feel hurt.
 

Last edited by Harriet (April 11, 2016 9:43 pm)


Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.   Independent OSAJ Affiliate

... but there may be some new players now. It’s okay. The East Wind takes us all in the end.
 

April 11, 2016 9:58 pm  #3097


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Harriet wrote:

nakahara wrote:

Sorry, if you find my opinions annoying, but I would rather voice my thoughts with sincerity than pretend the artificial perkiness I don´t feel. I joined the forum to share my joys or doubts and that would be rather impossible if I held my opinions to myself.

Pls stay down to earth, nakahara. I hope you don't assume pretension of artificial perkiness with any of us, otherwise some might feel hurt.
 

I was only saying that "I" can´t be perky when I do not feel it, it would be artificial of me.
But well, I´ll shut up. 


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

 

April 11, 2016 10:06 pm  #3098


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

My perkiness is disgustingly real.    


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Proud President and Founder of the OSAJ.  
Honorary German  
"Anyone who takes himself too seriously always runs the risk of looking ridiculous; anyone who can consistently laugh at himself does not".
 -Vaclav Havel 
"Life is full of wonder, Love is never wrong."   Melissa Ethridge

I ship it harder than Mrs. Hudson.
    
 
 

April 12, 2016 5:39 am  #3099


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

We've noticed! Ha.


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

April 12, 2016 6:22 am  #3100


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

@nakahara, please don't leave.
We need to have different opinions in a discussion forum. And everybody has doubts from time to time. I certainly do if I'm being very honest. And sometimes you write down things that gnaw at me but I can't put a finger on it till I see a post you wrote. We should be careful with negativity and polarization though. I think that got a bit out of hand yesterday. But I would miss your contributions.


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Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.


"If you're not reading the subtext then hell mend you"  -  Steven Moffat
"Love conquers all" Benedict Cumberbatch on Sherlock's and John's relationship
"This is a show about a detective, his best friend, his wife, their baby and their dog" - Nobody. Ever.

 

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