BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Mary

SusiGo · April 11, 2016 6:14 am

No, she did not. The only thing she did was go to Sherlock. It was him who stopped the motorcycle, drove it, made his way through the crowd, and dug his own hands in the fire to pull John out. If you take a look at the scene you will see that Mary is just standing there, calling John's name. She does not actively participate in the action. Which is confirmed again at Appledore when Magnussen talks about Sherlock saving his "damsel in distress".

besleybean · April 11, 2016 6:21 am

She was possibly worried she would get in the way and make things worse.
Sherlock was doing just fine.
I also don't understand where you're going with this.
Do you think she doesn't care, was working with Magnussen (or another) or what?
I thought the point of that scene was the indicator in her knowing what a skip code was.
If it turns out Mary doesn't really love John and is some kind of plant, this line of discussion may have some value for me.
But at the moment it just sounds to me like people who have already decided they don't like the character and cherry picking examples to show why.
Well 1. I guess we all cherry pick and 2. People are entitled to do this.
But I have no problem in believing John and Mary genuinely love each other. For a start Sherlock acknowledges that in his best man's speech and I don't think he was that wrong.
I am once again reminded of the long 'but is she really pregnant' discussion...

Last edited by besleybean (April 11, 2016 6:22 am)

SusiGo · April 11, 2016 6:28 am

I just wanted to correct a statement that IMO was not true. That is all.

As for the skip code - it has always bugged me a bit why it was sent to Mary, not to Sherlock. If Magnussen wanted to test Sherlock's pressure points this would have been the easiest way. I am not making assumptions, just stating the fact that involving Mary in this was not strictly necessary.

mrshouse · April 11, 2016 6:28 am

Yes, it was not even the aim of this scene to show Mary in action. That scene only served the purpose to test Sherlock's feelings. That is not to be taken negatively.
I thought about the character development. Maybe it is not the right word for Mary's character. She does not move forwards but her character traits are used as needed during the episodes:
-pretty, clever, funny in TEH, and she likes Sherlock!
-caring in TSoT for the friendship, but also a bit teasing and poking which is not always only funny and nice.
-then unnerved in HLV, and accordingly her outer appearance begins to change. Up to the reveal, then she stays cold and threatening for a couple of scenes, then again she's a good person, deserving to be let into the circle of trust again.
-then in TAB she's clever beyond belief and according to the writers the only professional who gets it right. Her former assassin work gets turned into working for Mycroft (so is turned into something much better than the "juicy freelance" we got in HLV. And nota bene that in the beginning of TAB the shooting is completely left out.)
What a rollercoaster, I get dizzy writing this down.
That is way more we get with any background character and more than we get with John over S3.
I have to ask again (and would be very grateful for thoughts here): Why is she that important?

Last edited by mrshouse (April 11, 2016 6:42 am)

besleybean · April 11, 2016 6:30 am

Because in Canon it is made clear she is the love of John's life and John is the most important person in the world to Sherlock and Sherlock wants what John wants.

SusiGo · April 11, 2016 6:33 am

Mrshouse: Because she is - besides Moriarty - the greatest obstacle to Sherlock's and John's friendship. This is her function in the plot. This is what storytelling is about. Big drama does not come from cosy three-way friendships. At least not in a Moftiss-created drama show.

Last edited by SusiGo (April 11, 2016 6:34 am)

mrshouse · April 11, 2016 6:33 am

@bb, Was that an answer to my last question? That would answer why she is included at all but not the rollercoaster we have with her that almost outshines everybody else.
@Susi, I'll think about that.

Last edited by mrshouse (April 11, 2016 6:34 am)

mrshouse · April 11, 2016 7:15 am

SusiGo wrote:
As for the skip code - it has always bugged me a bit why it was sent to Mary, not to Sherlock. If Magnussen wanted to test Sherlock's pressure points this would have been the easiest way. I am not making assumptions, just stating the fact that involving Mary in this was not strictly necessary.

That was just one of Mofftiss' beloved "You were told but didn't listen" moments. In preparation for the big reveal in HLV.

nakahara · April 11, 2016 7:23 am

besleybean wrote:
Because in Canon it is made clear she is the love of John's life and John is the most important person in the world to Sherlock and Sherlock wants what John wants.

Oh, so we are doing Canon now, do we?
Well, in the Canon, Mary dies (or disappears) before Sherlock comes back from his "Reichenbach hiatus".
Also, the Canon is about cases and mysteries, not about weddings, nappies or some super-smart Mary-suish women putting down the main character and ridiculing him.

And if it was up to me, I would gladly put Mary back among side-characters according to this canon-trend, would give her an average 5 minutes per episode, her character development be damned and would finally move forward with the whole action in this show. After three years, it´s time for some new exciting case not another marriage-crisis centered Mary drama.

SusiGo · April 11, 2016 7:32 am

Just one question: where does this idea of Sherlock turning into a nappy-changing romcom come from? So far the marriage crisis has been inextricably linked with the dramatic narrative. We did not get a single soppy romantic scene in the whole of series 3. Even in the moments where we see John and Mary alone they are talking about Sherlock. The marriage episode completely centered on the relationship of Sherlock and John. In the whole of TAB a baby was not even mentioned.

What I want to say is this: maybe we should put a bit more trust in the writers.

Last edited by SusiGo (April 11, 2016 7:33 am)

Vhanja · April 11, 2016 7:50 am

SusiGo wrote:
Just one question: where does this idea of Sherlock turning into a nappy-changing romcom come from? So far the marriage crisis has been inextricably linked with the dramatic narrative. We did not get a single soppy romantic scene in the whole of series 3. Even in the moments where we see John and Mary alone they are talking about Sherlock. The marriage episode completely centered on the relationship of Sherlock and John. In the whole of TAB a baby was not even mentioned.

What I want to say is this: maybe we should put a bit more trust in the writers.

*high-fives*

nakahara · April 11, 2016 8:00 am

SusiGo wrote:
Just one question: where does this idea of Sherlock turning into a nappy-changing romcom come from? So far the marriage crisis has been inextricably linked with the dramatic narrative. We did not get a single soppy romantic scene in the whole of series 3. Even in the moments where we see John and Mary alone they are talking about Sherlock. The marriage episode completely centered on the relationship of Sherlock and John. In the whole of TAB a baby was not even mentioned.

What I want to say is this: maybe we should put a bit more trust in the writers.

That´s true, but I still see certain trend in the story - the drama, initially aimed at mysteries cracked by Sherlock and at his companionship with John, gradually centered more on family things and emotional conundrums. Which would be well if it also left some room for cases still. BBC Sherlock as a main character is painted as a person brilliant at solving cases, but very inept at social interactions, so if this trend continues, his story could gradually change into a story of one ridiculous social failure after another, to the point of ridicule, while there would be almost no room left in the story to also show his brilliant mind... that´s why I have my doubts, although I would really like to have more confidence in the writers.

SusiGo · April 11, 2016 8:09 am

I do not see this trend. What I see is that they do not - as in Canon - present a long row of cases but instead concentrate on the development of the hero. And while the first episodes may have been more case-centric, they slowly progressed in revealing more and more of Sherlock's personality. Actually, I think TBB may be the case with the lowest personal involvement, apart from the Sebastian scenes. All other cases are used to highlight his inner journey:

- his suicidal tendencies in ASiP
- the start of the Moriarty game in TGG
- discoveries about his heart in ASiB
- Sherlock's fears in HoB

and so on. And I love how we get to see what the fall has meant to him instead of having him pick up his life as if nothing had happened. Same goes for John's reaction compared to the Canon one. And while some scenes may appear silly or funny (the napkins) they usually reveal something deeper. Comedy covering the pain beneath.

mrshouse · April 11, 2016 8:26 am

That is wonderfully put, Susi. Big kudos.
Just a couple of points:
Speaking only for myself, I have less fear that the show will turn into a nappie-changing-romcom.
But I have to agree with nakahara that the focus turns a little bit away from Sherlock's brilliant mind. And in S3 it is Mary's cleverness distracting from it. Same goes for the modern scenes in TAB. I agree with you that we also get a lot in S3 revolving around the friendship of Sherlock and John. But it never feels truly happy, them being separated feels sad and wrong.

What did we get from setlock for now? Mary and John dining together. A baby casting call. A heated scene and Arwel obviously building the Warstan flat. Hmmmm....

The baby narrative will probably serve two points:
-it's either a token of danger
- we get funny scenes with uncle Sherlock
Or both.

Last edited by mrshouse (April 11, 2016 8:27 am)

nakahara · April 11, 2016 8:27 am

SusiGo wrote:
I do not see this trend. What I see is that they do not - as in Canon - present a long row of cases but instead concentrate on the development of the hero. And while the first episodes may have been more case-centric, they slowly progressed in revealing more and more of Sherlock's personality. Actually, I think TBB may be the case with the lowest personal involvement, apart from the Sebastian scenes. All other cases are used to highlight his inner journey:

- his suicidal tendencies in ASiP
- the start of the Moriarty game in TGG
- discoveries about his heart in ASiB
- Sherlock's fears in HoB

and so on. And I love how we get to see what the fall has meant to him instead of having him pick up his life as if nothing had happened. Same goes for John's reaction compared to the Canon one. And while some scenes may appear silly or funny (the napkins) they usually reveal something deeper. Comedy covering the pain beneath.

But the emotional development of the hero in this case means also the gradual decline of his detective skills. The recent episode, TAB, while interesting and playful, didn´t feature any deductions, portrayed Sherlock´s investigation as absolutelly erratic and finally degraded him to a junkie who needs to have his cases solved by Mary (who is also his supervisor)... and I wonder why was this neccessary. Sherlock´s emotional development should not come at the expense of him loosing his marbles, IMHO:

Liberty · April 11, 2016 8:41 am

I don't think it's going to be a rom-com, and I'm guessing that the baby story is actually going to be quite dark.

I do kind of agree that Sherlock needs to be terribly clever, a genius, better than just about everyone else (except Mycroft). He's got to be different to everybody else. I'm not too worried about TAB - I think he was very clever there (just about everything is in his mind, so anything that he ascribes to other characters such as Mycroft, Mary or John is actually him). But I would hope that they wouldn't lose sight of the things that make the character special and different.

SusiGo · April 11, 2016 8:48 am

I see it like this: Sherlock has wilfully suppressed his feelings for a very long time. He states that it is necessary because feelings would distract him from his work. However, his friendship for John does not distract him from his work in series 1/2. They work brilliantly together. Everything starts to deteriorate the moment Sherlock realises that this relationship is over, i.e. after his return to London. He is no idiot and knows that a married John coming over now and then for cases is not the same as living with him in the same flat. And I think that it is this - Sherlock finally realising what the fall has cost him - that changes him. This is supported by him reading Mary correctly but not acting upon it because John loves her which is the start of his downfall culminating in him shooting Magnussen.

All this does not mean that I think Sherlock would be better off with suppressing his feelings again. He is a brilliant man who is deeply unhappy and therefore distracted from his work. Once this unhappiness has been resolved, he should be able to unite mind and heart. IMO this is the goal he must achieve.

mrshouse · April 11, 2016 10:06 am

SusiGo wrote:
I see it like this: Sherlock has wilfully suppressed his feelings for a very long time. He states that it is necessary because feelings would distract him from his work. However, his friendship for John does not distract him from his work in series 1/2. They work brilliantly together. Everything starts to deteriorate the moment Sherlock realises that this relationship is over, i.e. after his return to London. He is no idiot and knows that a married John coming over now and then for cases is not the same as living with him in the same flat. And I think that it is this - Sherlock finally realising what the fall has cost him - that changes him. This is supported by him reading Mary correctly but not acting upon it because John loves her which is the start of his downfall culminating in him shooting Magnussen.

All this does not mean that I think Sherlock would be better off with suppressing his feelings again. He is a brilliant man who is deeply unhappy and therefore distracted from his work. Once this unhappiness has been resolved, he should be able to unite mind and heart. IMO this is the goal he must achieve.

You're in splendid form today.

Liberty · April 11, 2016 10:12 am

I think you could be spot on about the mind/heart thing, Susi - in fact, I think that could be the overarching theme of the whole thing. They've certainly played with the "heart" thing much more than ACD, so I think that's the direction of it. But I also think Sherlock has to be kind of set apart - in fact to set himself apart. I think that's been a parallel theme too ("I made me"). It's part of who he is as a character (and part of that is being brilliant, eschewing "relationships", etc.).

I think he would function better with John back in 221B (which I assume is where they're going). However, ACD Sherlock did still function even when John wasn't physically living there.

I think Mary is bound to be a bit of a barrier in the way a serious relationship/marriage will tend to get in the way of friendship to some extent (oddly, shooting Sherlock didn't drive John and Sherlock apart although you would think it would, one way or another!). But I think the baby's an even bigger barrier - that's what will really pull John away and give him a different life, and change Sherlock's role, and I think Sherlock knows it. The baby was also the third person who Sherlock vowed to, so is almost set up to create a terrible situation for him. I have no idea what will happen, but I'm trying to have faith that it won't be a "Three men and a baby" situation (with Mary either replacing one of the men, or being absent).

SusiGo · April 11, 2016 10:25 am

Thank you, mrshouse.

Liberty, I think this is where Moftiss are deviation from Canon. They show a development because they are interested in a deeper exploration of the character.

Here is a nice (eye-winking) Moffat quote regarding the Sherlock/heart/mind (cases) thing:

‘Sherlock is having various emotional crises while pretending to do detective work’

This is of course exaggerated but only to a certain extent. This is basically the difference between a detective show and a show about a detective. And - coming back on topic - Mary resp. the baby are among the triggers of his emotional crises.