stoertebeker wrote:

Folks, don't work yourself too much up about the character of Mary. Nobody needs to like her. But fact is, she is part of the story now, for how long, who knows. There is simply no use to spend too much energy into 'hating' her (sorry, can't find an other word at the moment), it won't change anything and you only kill youself the fun of the series. That's my opinion.

I get what you say, still, IMHO, Mary is too big "plot-point" by now - if we count S3, TAB and probably an entirety of S4, her character´s arc in the show will be longer than the character arc of any other character other than Sherlock, also she plays too prominent a role in almost every episode to be easily ignored. Some comments from TPTB seems to indicate that she will be a new member of a "detective-trio" or that she is a professional where John and Sherlock are the "bumbling amateurs".
So its normal to discuss her if her character grew to be this big. And because her motivations are still shady, its also normal to speculate about her actions and to muse whether she is a goodie or a baddie.
What would be the point of a thread called "Mary - the subject of discussion" if this speculation should be entirely avoided?
 

I don't meant not discussing her at all. I just have the feeling that there are a lot of emotions involved regarding this discussion and I would wish that it becomes a bit more objective just for the sake of everybodys nerves. But I know it's difficult if you are so unhappy with a character development. I feel mainly ambivalent towards her character and I simply don't think that there are no positives things about her.

Last edited by stoertebeker (April 9, 2016 8:34 am)

Let me add a very rational argument that is supported by the show. I guarantee you, there will be no hate, no heated feelings, just what is there on the screen:

It has been argued that Sherlock is fond of Mary, even after the shooting, and what we see seems to support this view - defending her, "give my love to Mary", the hug at the tarmac. But all those scenes have one thing in common: Sherlock and Nary are not alone with each other. 
Please look at the scenes in which they are really or supposedly alone: the hospital room, Leinster Gardens up to the reveal that John is there. The atmosphere is different, true? 

But then there was TAB and this was the true reveal. We are in Sherlock's head, the most intimate POV you can get. And look at the Mary that is presented there. Both Victorian Mary and Present Day Mary (leaving open if any and which scenes are real) are not presented in a sympathetic way.

Look at Victorian Mary: She belittles both John and Sherlock. She wants to take part in their enterprises, i.e. she cannot accept that they are duo and not a trio. She works for Mycroft behind Sherlock's back and basically does what John refused to do from the very beginning - spying on the mad little brother. She is not part of the conspiracy of women whose cause is rightful even if the means are doubtful. She has an agenda of her own. And she is not pregnant but this is another story. 

Stop, you might say, but he cares so much about her safety when he runs out half-drugged and drives to the church. True, but he is with John and John is Mary's husband and Sherlock supposes John wishes for her to be saft. 

Present Day Mary: This is a bit tricky since we do not know for sure what is real and what is MP. On the other hand it does not really matter because we just want to look her behaviour which is remarkably different from John's and Mycroft's worry about Sherlock. Mary remains cool, distant, checks Sherlock's phone which might be considered private, goes on about the lack of MI5 security. 
What is more, in the modern scenes John and Mary do not exchange a single word with each other apart from the "who is taking home whom" bitching in the cemetery in the modern MP scene. 
So this is either Sherlock's MP or it is real and just the way Mary behaves towards Sherlock, Mycroft, and John. In the end, it does not matter. 

This is not an interpretation, this is what we are given via an insight into Sherlock's mind. This is how he sees her, how he thinks about her when he is alone in his brain. There is a remarkable contrast between his outward behaviour and the way he thinks about her. 
 
 

Last edited by SusiGo (April 9, 2016 9:42 am)

I want to thank Susi for her post. It is objective and rational and a clear description of what we see on screen.
Bb, I agree that Sherlock sees Mary as part of Johns life, but as a part of their work? Not so much IMHO. One gets the feeling that the moments of decision - does Mary run after them oui ou no?- are always full of tension and discontent at least on Mary's part. And Sherlock clearly does not see them as a harmonious trio in his fantasy. He sees himself and John.
About getting more of Mary's past: I'm torn. On the one hand I would like some blanks filled to better understand her. On the other hand I have to agree with nakahara. It's time to move on. Why give this character such an amount space for character development?

Agreed, it should be relevant for the plot. But we're dancing around Mary and her character since 4 episodes now. Why is she that important? Do we need three more episodes? (which would lead up to seven all together. More than we had Sherlock and John alone in Baker Street).
And a question to the fans of Mary: some have argued that the old dynamics needed a freshen up. When do you feel we need it from this threesome?

Last edited by mrshouse (April 9, 2016 10:12 am)

Hang on a minute, that seems an awful lot of strands here.
Let's put it another way: why do people get so worked up about Mary?
She's just a character.
She really hasn't had that much air time, she certainly hasn't had too much considering she's the love of John's life and especially as we had the incredible reveal about her.
I don't know, but my gut feeling about her is that she will go.
So I'm entirely happy for her to have her time in the sun before she does.
A good counter balance to two strong male leads.
Oh and another thing: people can't have it all ways.
You can't both have less Mary time and then complain that somehow we don't see enough of a loving, domestic relationship with John and Mary.
For me, all I need to see about Mary is what is relevant to the plot.

Last edited by besleybean (April 9, 2016 10:25 am)

No, I don't like her banter with Sherlock in TAB particularly much. And as I said, I don't view her as a nice person and I want her to leave the show the sooner the better. I just don't agree with this black-and-white negative view on her. A person doesn't have to be only horrible to be disliked or only nice and fluffy to be liked. 

My comment was meant in general, not to you specifically. And I don't think she was shown only in a bad light in TAB either. As mentioned, I think her frustration over being left out because she was a woman, was very understandable. 

I view it as she enjoying adventures just as much as Watson does, so can't understand why she can't join them. I see it as a way to highlight early on in the episode how women were viewed in that time and what role they played (or didn't play). 

They needed to find a way to put modern Mary in Victoriant imes, and I think that would have been a real issue for a woman like her back in the day.

Well for me we'll have to see how all of this pans out in modern Sherlock...
For now I'm happy to accept it was Sherlock's drugged Mind Palace and not all of it made total sense to me.