BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012.


You are not logged in. Would you like to login or register?



March 16, 2016 7:07 pm  #5601


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Okay, but...
if we assume there's subtext, but not to code a relationship, what exactly is there to find in the subtext then?
Of course there are all those wonderful little hints to ACD canon but...the longer I think about it the less meaning I can think of concerning the meaning of the subtext.


------------------------------------------------------------

Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.


"If you're not reading the subtext then hell mend you"  -  Steven Moffat
"Love conquers all" Benedict Cumberbatch on Sherlock's and John's relationship
"This is a show about a detective, his best friend, his wife, their baby and their dog" - Nobody. Ever.

 

March 16, 2016 7:29 pm  #5602


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I think it depends on what bit of subtext!  One of my favourite bits is John's line about "nobody could fake being such an annoying dick all the time".  On the surface, it's insulting, but underneath, what it's saying is that John has absolute faith in Sherlock, that Moriarty can't get to him, that Sherlock can trust and rely on John, etc.  I found it very moving and it makes it all the more poignant when Sherlock has to kind of betray that trust by faking suicide. 

 

March 16, 2016 7:33 pm  #5603


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I think Sherlock was moved, too.
 


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

March 22, 2016 10:47 am  #5604


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Very nice quote concerning "quuer readings", quite relevant for Sherlock:

http://just-sort-of-happened.tumblr.com/post/141375444698/queer-readings-arent-alternative-readings


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

 

March 22, 2016 2:57 pm  #5605


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I think this is often true, and in fact sometimes what's there in the subtext and so on is actually the intended reading (rather than an alternative one).   And the writer does seem to have a very broad definition of queer, from what I can find out. 

I think it's maybe slightly different with Sherlock, in that we're talking about whether the two of them are going to openly get together or not.  If they did, there would be no question of there being anything other than a "queer reading". 

 

March 22, 2016 4:50 pm  #5606


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I'm just trying to recall if I've ever watched a film or TV show in a 'will they, wont they?' vein...
I don't think I have.
I certainly wouldn't for Sherlock, for me it's just not what it's about.
Besides, I really do feel people are missing that Mary is the love of John's life and he is going to be broken if anything happens to her.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

March 22, 2016 5:30 pm  #5607


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

From time to time I love the good old "will they, won't they", as long as it is done in a good way with a sparkling chemistry between the actors.
Funny how differently we all view the show. For me there is not one single scene where I get the feeling that Mary is the love of John's life. Their chemistry is so boring.
Anyway, thanks for the link, nakahara.


------------------------------------------------------------

Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.


"If you're not reading the subtext then hell mend you"  -  Steven Moffat
"Love conquers all" Benedict Cumberbatch on Sherlock's and John's relationship
"This is a show about a detective, his best friend, his wife, their baby and their dog" - Nobody. Ever.

 

March 22, 2016 6:00 pm  #5608


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Wow.
I really can't believe people think John is even indifferent to Mary, never mind dislikes her...
I see the sobbing now.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

March 23, 2016 12:06 pm  #5609


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Here's an interesting post on Moffat's stated views on Sherlock's sexuality and how that might conflict with canon: http://sylviatietjens.co.vu/post/71699667952/lisagemeni-wsswatson

To be honest, I haven't looked into the original ACD characters' sexuality too much (I was never the big fan that some people are, and my vision of Sherlock came from the Rathbone films rather than directly from the stories) and while I don't think what the writer here says is conclusive, it's obvious that if ACD did want to write gay characters, he'd have to do it pretty much the way he wrote Holmes and Watson!  In a time when male friendship was celebrated, it was a way to show love between men while allowing people to make theiir own assumptions.

I'm digressing, but my point was really that whatever the writer thinks of Moffat's interpretation of the canon, his comments do tell us what his interpretation is.   And they're all consistent, or as consistent as you'd expect from somebody being endlessly interviewed over many years (i.e. views and approaches and what he might want to reveal changes slightly over the years, but the gist of it is the same), and aligns with what Moffat shows us in the series.  For instance, Moffat talking about Sherlock fancying Irene - that's what he saw when he read the story, whether he was right or wrong, but it explains what we see in ASIB (somebody who has managed to repress that side of their nature having it unexpectedly come up and throw them off balance).   And it fits with what they say in the greenhouse scene in TAB (Sherlock claims that he keeps a memento because she was a formidable opponent, John points out that she's very attractive). 

I don't think we're told anything outright about his sexual orientation, and maybe it doesn't matter at all, except that, as in the article, Steven said that he wouldn't be likely to live with a man if he was attracted to men.  (Unlike the writer, I don't think this means that Steven Moffat was saying that all gay men are attracted to all men - simply that Sherlock, who avoids and represses his sexuality rather than being genuinely asexual, would not put himself in the way of frustration like that). 

Anyway, I won't go through it all - just thought it was interesting how well what Steven Moffat says outside of the show actually fits with what's in it, and how it gives an insight into his feelings about the characters. 

 

March 30, 2016 9:08 am  #5610


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I was listening to this interview again the other day too: https://youtu.be/TJ7RswJwKaoThe interview does have lots of information from Steven and Benedict on Johnlock (which is partly why I'm posting it here, rather than in the TAB thread), but I thought this bit was relevant to my post above and to the greenhouse scene:

He wasn’t born this way.  And that’s what fascinating about him. He’s not really, although people say it of him, a psychopath.  He’s not really Asperger’s. He’s not really autistic.  What’s fascinating about Sherlock Holmes is He Has Chosen to Be This Way.  To make himself better at what he does he has chosen to ignore whole parts of his life and his heart.  And that’s sort of fascinating.  He thinks he’s done better than he has!  Because those emotions are still there.  What is fascinating: if Sherlock was just some sort of cold, emotionless robot he wouldn’t be interesting.  He’s a man who aspires to be a cold, emotionless robot, but is still very much a man, and that struggle is the story of the evolution and the growth of Sherlock Holmes.  

I do think that's what we're seeing in the greenhouse - Sherlock exploring his decision to "be that way", to ignore parts of his heart.   I think the scene hints that there is more to it than just making himself better at what he does, possibly ("Redbeard" makes me wonder if there is also a fear of being hurt - something Mycroft hinted at in TSOT too), but it still fits with the 2012 interview, and the story going throughout the series that Sherlock has cut off parts of his life/heart and does feel some regret/loss over that. 

 

March 30, 2016 10:21 am  #5611


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I don't think he regrets it... I think he just kind of accepts that's how it it, if he wants to be unburdened and keep his rationailty.
He certainly loves certain people...but again he just kind of expects them to be there at his beck and call.
Though I do think John is the only one who he doesn't ever get fed up of.
Well, possibly Irene too, but she wasn't really around long enough and actually he does tell her to 'get out of his head' when he's trying to work. I don't think he'd ever say that to John.
John is the only one who is always in tune with him, well except at Xmas and if he's after skirt!
These things irritate Sherlock but again, he just accepts his goldfish is human and needs food and sex- things which he can't supply him with. Well, he can buy him dinner!


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

March 30, 2016 10:52 am  #5612


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Maybe regret is the wrong word, because it implies that he'd change it if he could.   Obviously, he could change it but chooses not to, so still believes he's doing the right thing (by shutting off that part of his life).  But I think he feels some sort of loss, longing.  Probably that's why he's questioning himself in TAB. 

 

March 30, 2016 12:01 pm  #5613


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

See I just didn't take it as that, I thought he was exploring how others see him...but I do see a childhood trauma at losing Redbeard and therefore a fear of getting involved only to be heart broken.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

March 30, 2016 12:12 pm  #5614


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I agree with you, Liberty. The self-questioning is quite interesting and shows how the whole episode is not just about Moriarty but about exploring his self and his past. Both Moffat and Benedict have said that Sherlock experiences emotions and sexual desires and has consciously chosen to suppress them for whatever reasons. If he was just fine with that, there would be no reason for the glasshouse scene. Because this is not John questioning him, urging him to rethink his choices, but himself. 



 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

March 30, 2016 12:15 pm  #5615


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Is it not a follow up to SIB's: 'do you think there's anything wrong with us, Mycroft?' line?  Sorry if that's not the exact quote...but you know what I mean.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

March 30, 2016 12:46 pm  #5616


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I think it's obvious that Sherlock is scared of/intimidated by emotions, particular romantic/sexual ones. If he were 100% happy with his decision and his "I dont' care about sentiment" attitude was true, then he wouldn't be so uncomfortable talking about it (even in his own head). 

From what I get from the series, Sherlock received an emotional trauma as a young boy when his dog was put down, and following Mycroft's advice, he (tried to) stop caring about anyone. Neither did he deal with the loss of Redbeard (nor any other loss or pain he must have experienced through life), only shoving it far, far down in his Mind Palace somewhere. 

So fear of the pain of hurt and loss is what drives him to be a "machine". However, I am not sure if that explains all of it. I mean... I have experienced death of pets myself. I am a huge pet lover and I know how devastating that is. But it still seems a bit odd that the death of a childhood dog would be so traumatic that even as a grown man he seems to freak out by the mere mention of the name (Redbeard)(. 


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings


Team Hudders!
 
 

March 30, 2016 1:45 pm  #5617


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Yes, and I'd think that probably about 50% or thereabouts of children experience the loss of a pet in childhood (and of course many experience other bereavements - parents, siblings, etc.).    It's not something exceptional, so it's odd that Sherlock has such an exceptional response to it.  Either they're showing that he's hyperemotional/hypersensitive (possibly - all the more reason to keep his feelings tamped down?), or "Redbeard" isn't what it seems ... and I suppose the mentions in TAB suggest that we're going to hear more about it.

(I think there's also still an element of really believing that he functions better without that sort of distraction, and trying to place himself above it.  I think the words he uses suggest that ("disadvantage", "losing side", etc.) and in ASIB he does actually find that his judgment is affected.  It seems he would like people to believe that he just isn't interested in that side of things - whereas in reality, he has suppressed it). 

 

March 30, 2016 2:01 pm  #5618


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Oh, I agree, his judgment is absolutelly affected by it. As shown in how he couldn't deduce Mary, because he wanted to like her for John's sake.


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings


Team Hudders!
 
 

March 30, 2016 2:06 pm  #5619


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I would add: and that he recognises that John and Mary are genuinely in love.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

March 30, 2016 2:07 pm  #5620


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

But the thing is that he usually sees the downside of feelings - crimes committed out of jealousy, people hurting each other, exploiting others feelings. We cannot know what would happen if he were in a happy relationship, something we have never seen on the show. His friendship with John in series 1 and 2 came quite close and he was usually highly functional. What happens with him and Irene - whatever we want to call it - is not a relationship and it is not happy. As Vhanja said, he tries to like Mary for John, probably against his will. So his judgement is impeded. Sherlock is deeply unhappy and emotionally compromised during the whole of series 3 and this is the reason why his brain does not function as it should. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

Board footera

 

Powered by Boardhost. Create a Free Forum