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December 14, 2014 1:18 am  #241


Re: Sherlock- Asperger's syndrome and sociopathy

I've read her articles, and I disagree. As far as finding reputable sources, there are many on both sides of the argument ... I'll let you search for them yourself. I know my own when I see them. She appears to be interpreting the criteria in a way to support her pre-determined conclusion, a common practice among non-autistics.

You're entitled to your opinion, but I still contend that there's a monetary conflict of interest that is corrupting her reasoning. 

 

December 14, 2014 1:24 am  #242


Re: Sherlock- Asperger's syndrome and sociopathy

Give me links to somebody else who's educated and comes to a different conclusion, and I'll be happy to read them. Until then, I agree with her conclusion.


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December 14, 2014 2:30 pm  #243


Re: Sherlock- Asperger's syndrome and sociopathy

I've seen that blog before and thought it was quite good.  It takes an interesting look at the diagnostic criteria and explains that it's not a clearly defined condition.  Sherlock obviously has some features, but might not qualify for a positive diagnosis if he went to be assessed, and that might not even be helpful.  She is not saying to people on the spectrum "he is not one of you" - he may well be.   I wasn't aware that she was selling "think like Sherlock" books, and to be fair to her, I don't see them promoted on the site (if they are, they're very difficult to find).  I don't agree with everything she says (not particularly on this subject as it's not something I know a lot about), but it's nice to have another perspective.

 

December 14, 2014 2:38 pm  #244


Re: Sherlock- Asperger's syndrome and sociopathy

Yeah, I like her articles quite a lot. I haven't seen any adverts myself. I have spent a lot of time on her site, and have never seen or heard of her selling books. I still can't see how that is an argument against her articles, though.

I like what she writes about Sherlock. How she says that he is emotionally a child, because he hasn't had the chance to learn how to develop, mature and deal with adult emotions. (That is, haven't chosen to do so). How Mycroft and him have developed very different coping mechanisms etc . A lot of good stuff there. 

Last edited by Vhanja (December 14, 2014 2:39 pm)


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December 14, 2014 10:04 pm  #245


Re: Sherlock- Asperger's syndrome and sociopathy

Vhanja, if you're interested in expert opinion, just read back this thread, there was a user called Belis, a while back, who is a clinical psychologist or something like that. 

I only have a BA in psychology, so not really an expert, but from what I know, I agree with Wellingtongoose. He doesn't have autism, isn't even on the spectrum. I think the underlying problem is that it has become fashionable for all sorts of people who consider themselves or someone else 'odd' to self-diagnose Asperger or autism, without much knowledge about it. Possibly, professionals also overdiagnose of insurance reasons. I think it's damaging and labelling Sherlock would add to that damage because people who recognise something of themselves in the character might worry that they have this very serious mental disorder. 

It's a while back since I commented on this thread but I also made the following argument: Benedict is a great actor, Moftiss are great writers, surely if they made an autistic character it'd look like one. Now I can add that Benedict's Alan Turing seems to look a bit on the spectrum, clearly Benedict knows how to play this. 

Moffat says he's not autistic here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJ7RswJwKao  

 

December 15, 2014 6:22 am  #246


Re: Sherlock- Asperger's syndrome and sociopathy

Thanks for the tip, I will.

And, yeah, I agree with you. As she went through the diagnosis criteria one by one, it was then easy to see that he didn't meet the criteria for autism/Asberger's nor - of course - being a psychopath. (Although Moriarty and Magnussen can be interpreted as the latter. Although that isn't really a psychological term in itself).

She continues to argue that IF Sherlock was to have any disorder (which she doubts), he would fit better the description of schizoid personality disorder. 


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December 15, 2014 8:39 pm  #247


Re: Sherlock- Asperger's syndrome and sociopathy

I'm not too big on the schizoid thing either. But it's probably closer than ASD.

 

December 15, 2014 8:50 pm  #248


Re: Sherlock- Asperger's syndrome and sociopathy

Maybe some words from Benedict Cumberbatch might help illuminate the situation: http://www.bigissue.com/features/interviews/3405/benedict-cumberbatch-interview-i-went-to-public-school-but-im-not-a-public

“There is a lot more backstory [for Sherlock in Series 3]. There are a lot more scenes where you find out why he is the way he is. 

The first conversation I ever had with Steven Moffat about Sherlock was asking: “How did this happen?” 

His response was: “What do you mean? He’s just brilliant.” 

But someone isn’t just brilliant, there is something that has happened. 

I didn’t want Sherlock being easily labelled as being either on the spectrum of Asperger’s or autism. The reality of those problems and difficulties is very different in each individual case. 

It would have been lazy for us to just say: “Oh, that is what he is.” So that is examined a lot more in this series.”
—  Benedict Cumberbatch (The Big Issue interview, January 2014 

Last edited by RavenMorganLeigh (December 15, 2014 8:50 pm)

 

December 15, 2014 9:18 pm  #249


Re: Sherlock- Asperger's syndrome and sociopathy

I'm also going submit another article for consideration: http://nymag.com/news/features/autism-spectrum-2012-11/

Autism Spectrum: Are You On It?
If so, you're in good company. From Asperger’s to “Asperger’s,” how the spectrum became quite so all-inclusive.

From page 4, 
"Men have caught on and, in a kind of inverted gaslighting, begun to describe themselves as having Asperger’s as a way of controlling their spouses. “Having Asperger’s-like syndrome does not give you Asperger’s,” says David Schnarch, a Colorado-based couples therapist. “Having a big belly does not make you pregnant. I’ve not seen a single case of what I would consider to be diagnosable Asperger’s. But I have seen any number of cases of wives accusing husbands of it, any number of cases of husbands claiming to have it.” It’s the new ADHD, he says. “The wife doesn’t want to accept that the husband knows what he’s doing when he’s doing something she doesn’t like.” Schnarch recalls a man who phoned him the day before a scheduled initial couples session and announced that he’d just been diagnosed with Asperger’s. “As soon as this happened,” Schnarch says, “I knew I had difficulty.” He contacted the referring therapist, who said he’d suspected the man had Asperger’s because he said things to his girlfriend that were so cruel he couldn’t possibly understand their impact. As far as Schnarch was concerned, it was an all-too-familiar instance of ­sadism masquerading as disability. “If you’re going to perp, the best place to perp from is the victim position.”

Because Asperger’s lives on the outskirts of normal, and because its symptoms can resemble willfully antisocial behavior, there’s now a presumption of excuse-making whenever someone invokes it to get out of a pickle. Last October, South Park aired an episode in which the people at an Asperger’s group-therapy center turn out to be faking their symptoms and not even to believe in the reality of the disorder. (Cartman, meanwhile, mishearing Asperger’s as “Ass Burgers,” tries to fake it by stuffing his underwear with hamburgers.) “You’re not autistic,” a doctor tells Hugh Laurie’s abrasive character in an episode of House. “You don’t even have Asperger’s. You wish you did; it would exempt you from the rules, give you freedom, absolve you of responsibility, let you date 17-year-olds. But, most important, it would mean that you’re not just a jerk.”


My thoughts-- I think that there's a very human tendency to want to identify with characters we love and admire, but we also want them to be like US. 

As a black woman, I can tell you how overjoyed I was when watching "Merlin" for the first time, and seeing Gwuinevere portrayed by a mixed-race woman of color, her brother who becomes a knight is black,  and there are many POC's throughout the series, extras, other knights, etc, .. It's lovely to see that, when the majority of the representations of black people tend to be negative stereotypes. 

So, I get it. 

From what I understand a lot of Aspies (respectfully trying to uses the proper terminolgy, here) see their diagnosis as an Identity, much as I see blackness as (in my case a very small part ) of my identitiy.

I could be wrong  and am quite content to be schooled on this, but I think that may be what is behind the Sherlock/Asberger's debate. 

I also think there is an element of,  as someone said earlier "cropping the heads off the poppy" going on-- and that it's societal-- the urge to "take someone down a notch" , particularly when they are exceptional and enjoy what they do and aren't particulary humble about it. We read that as arrogant, and instinctively want to bring them down to what we percieve as our level. 

Again, just thinking... 

 

December 15, 2014 9:27 pm  #250


Re: Sherlock- Asperger's syndrome and sociopathy

Very nice post, Raven. I see it in a similar manner.


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I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

 

December 15, 2014 9:29 pm  #251


Re: Sherlock- Asperger's syndrome and sociopathy

nakahara wrote:

Very nice post, Raven. I see it in a similar manner.

Thank you, my dear! 

 

 

December 16, 2014 4:11 pm  #252


Re: Sherlock- Asperger's syndrome and sociopathy

I agree - great post! And I do agree with you. I get the impression that when it is stated that Sherlock isn't Asberger, some with that diagnosis will get personally offended.


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December 16, 2014 4:54 pm  #253


Re: Sherlock- Asperger's syndrome and sociopathy

Some do get offended, yes. But be aware that people on the spectrum, Aspie or otherwise, tend to process information differently from us neurotypicals. The more subtle parts of social interaction tend to fly over their heads so they're more likely to focus on the more superficial aspects (like the 'bit not good' interactions) and miss the subtle parts, like the acting and also the writers' creative liberties. 

 

December 18, 2014 3:51 am  #254


Re: Sherlock- Asperger's syndrome and sociopathy

It may also be a case of (1) people wanting to see themselves (in this case, Aspies)  represented in media--
and (2) feeling rejected when they are told, "No, he's not an Aspie." Hopes are dashed. Not fun. 

Last edited by RavenMorganLeigh (December 18, 2014 3:52 am)

 

December 18, 2014 7:43 am  #255


Re: Sherlock- Asperger's syndrome and sociopathy

And/or that they genuinely recognise the features he does have, and feel kinship whether or not he would meet the diagnostic criteria. 

I suspect that the writers have steered away from giving him a diagnosis, because they don't want to be tied to making him fit to or represent a particular condition.   It's not supposed to be a study of somebody with X.  (But I'm not 100% sure on this, and they may have had something in mind). 

Last edited by Liberty (December 18, 2014 1:57 pm)

 

December 18, 2014 10:33 am  #256


Re: Sherlock- Asperger's syndrome and sociopathy

I think I read somewhere Benedict playing Sherlock not to fit a particular diagnosis for Asberger's or sosiopath, because he is more complex than that.


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December 18, 2014 10:42 am  #257


Re: Sherlock- Asperger's syndrome and sociopathy

Yes, he has said that. And that Sherlock is not asexual either. Both the writers and Benedict have taken care to avoid any diagnoses or categories in which to fit him. Which is good.
But there are people who project their own conditions and orientations on the character and are disappointed of feel even cheated when hearing this. 


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

January 11, 2015 9:38 pm  #258


Re: Sherlock- Asperger's syndrome and sociopathy

I've never believed he was a sociopath, I've always thought it was just a label he gave himself to strike fear into the people who crossed him, socially. I always cringe a little at the 'High Functioning Sociopath' line for that reason (that, and the fact that there is no such thing as a HFS... it's just not 'a thing' as far as I know.)

As for him having an ASD... this seems more likely to me but, as he's a fictional character written by people who have no intentions of creating a character who is canonically on the spectrum, it is totally impossible to say for certian whether Sherlock is on the spectrum or not.

I have read arguements where people have noted that the only reason the creators have backed away from labelling him as autistic is because the creators don't want to have the scandal of such a huge character being autistic and then doing *really* terrible things (i.e. shoot a man in the face.) Having it open-ended like this allows the writers to 'bend the rules' with regards to how Sherlock interacts with the world around him. And allows them to get away with more for less 'accountability' for what they write. If this is the case it is, corporately, ingenious.

That said: I think it is wonderful that people with ASD/AS identify with aspects of Sherlock's character. If I had to chose a diagnosis (and not dance around the issue) I'd say AS more than sociopathy or Schizoid personality disorder. I've heard talk of him maybe being bipolar before, which was interresting, thoughts?

P.S. I've not seen many aspies getting all butt-hurt-y over people disagreeing over Sherlock having ASD: only with people who don't have autism telling them what ASD is or is not like/how it presents/how it affects them etc.
 


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January 11, 2015 9:41 pm  #259


Re: Sherlock- Asperger's syndrome and sociopathy

Yeah, there are good and strong arguments for him being neither. 


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February 5, 2016 9:16 pm  #260


Re: Sherlock- Asperger's syndrome and sociopathy

One of my other British "special friends" Laurence Fox posted this very interesting video of a young woman who talks about her life with Asperger. Very insightful and also funny.



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