BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Johnlock: The Official Debate

Vhanja · January 27, 2016 8:19 pm

The Vitruvian Man isn't meant to be sexual. It's meant to show proportions of man. Which might allure to Sherlock finding John phsycially attractive, yes, that is a possibility. But it's not the only possibility.

Vhanja · January 27, 2016 8:20 pm

Ho Yay wrote:
Listen, I didn't create the conventions of romantic coding or put them in the show. If there is discrimination in the perception of romantic coding it is heteronormativity, why is it so hard to accept?

It's hard to accept that you present your personal views as the only viable fact. Which simply can't be done when we talk about interpretations of a show.

Liberty · January 27, 2016 8:22 pm

The picture of the Vitruvian man seems to me to be about Sherlock wanting to calculate the amount of alcohol to give John - the picture shows human proportions, and Leonarda da Vinci was a scientist as well as an artist.

Sherlock spinning John round (if it's the scene I'm thinking of - I may have this completely wrong, so do correct me if so and point me in the direction of the correct scene) seems to me to be about Sherlock being ultra intent on trying to get John to remember important information - a task he thinks will be monumentally difficult for him. The joke is that John sensibly took a photo on his phone - no super intellect or memory needed.

Of course there can be other interpretations, but you can see that these scenes do not unequivocally rule out platonic friendship (in the way that snogging, for instance, might!).

Mothonthemantel · January 27, 2016 8:26 pm

Casablanca on the tarmac. Recreating one of the greatest love story scenes and tropes ( copied in The Bodyguard and others ) for Sherlock and John.
Coincidence ?

tonnaree · January 27, 2016 8:27 pm

*still sitting in the corner staring at Sherlock's bum*

Whisky · January 27, 2016 8:28 pm

the picture:
It's not balance of probability, it's our expectations.

Last edited by Whisky (January 27, 2016 8:29 pm)

Vhanja · January 27, 2016 8:28 pm

We don't know if it's a coincidence or not. A goodbye like that would be painful even if they are "just" friends.

In The Bodyguard, Rachel stops the plane to run out and kiss her Bodyguard one last time before leaving - there is nothing like that in this scene. Also, in Casablanca, it's already been established that the pair DID have a fling in their past. There is nothing like that with Sherlock and John.

Liberty · January 27, 2016 8:29 pm

Harriet wrote:
Liberty wrote:
... And it doesn't need camera angles, etc. - they're clearly and openly shown as friends.
Yes, who needs a thorough and proper film analysis, after all? Who needs the ideas and methods of film critics? After all, it's just a tv show, and it's quite simple ... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

But do you really need an analysis to prove that they're friends? You don't think it's obvious?

Last edited by Liberty (January 27, 2016 8:29 pm)

Vhanja · January 27, 2016 8:31 pm

Whisky wrote:
the picture:
It's not balance of probability, it's our expectations.

Very true. It depends a lot on what filter you view the show through. Confirmation bias is a very well-known and widespread tendency. And, no, of course that doesn't only fit Johnlockers. Every person on this planet can fall prey to this tendency.

Mothonthemantel · January 27, 2016 8:31 pm

tonnaree wrote:
*still sitting in the corner staring at Sherlock's bum*

Joins, points at the ornament and wonders if it is Jessica Rabbit.

Liberty · January 27, 2016 8:31 pm

tonnaree wrote:
*still sitting in the corner staring at Sherlock's bum*

Now there's something we can all appreciate!

Vhanja · January 27, 2016 8:32 pm

Indeed. Let's unite over Sherlock's bum!

Whisky · January 27, 2016 8:42 pm

Sounds good *scrolling back up to the lovely picture*

Liberty · January 27, 2016 8:46 pm

Mothonthemantel wrote:
Casablanca on the tarmac. Recreating one of the greatest love story scenes and tropes ( copied in The Bodyguard and others ) for Sherlock and John.
Coincidence ?

Quite possibly not coincidence (although it's probably hard to do at a farewell at a plane like that and NOT think of Casablanca!). But this is referencing something, rather than showing something actually happening, if you see what I mean. They love each other, they're parting with one of them thinking it may be forever. There are romantic (depending on your definition of the word) elements like this to their friendship.

Mothonthemantel · January 27, 2016 8:48 pm

Not sure of the rules on posting other peoples gifs and things so..

One of the more seriously suggestive things the Sherlock team have done , is during the drunken scene , when they shrink Sherlock wiping his mouth down and he vanishes into John's mouth.
Have people seen that ? That is 100% sexual.

Ho Yay · January 27, 2016 8:54 pm

Vhanja wrote:
Ho Yay wrote:
Listen, I didn't create the conventions of romantic coding or put them in the show. If there is discrimination in the perception of romantic coding it is heteronormativity, why is it so hard to accept?

It's hard to accept that you present your personal views as the only viable fact. Which simply can't be done when we talk about interpretations of a show.

I'm not giving interpretations as a fact, I am giving as a fact romantic coding, which are conventions that serve nothing else but to communicate romance. It's a language. If one doesn't understand the language because the gender of the objects has changed is heteronormativity. It's not about views, I described a reality bringing sources to prove that there is actual romantic coding and explained which the issue was quite in dept.

Ho Yay · January 27, 2016 8:57 pm

Mothonthemantel wrote:
Not sure of the rules on posting other peoples gifs and things so..

One of the more seriously suggestive things the Sherlock team have done , is during the drunken scene , when they shrink Sherlock wiping his mouth down and he vanishes into John's mouth.
Have people seen that ? That is 100% sexual.

I have this giffed myself

Schmiezi · January 27, 2016 8:58 pm

Liberty wrote:
Harriet wrote:
Liberty wrote:
... And it doesn't need camera angles, etc. - they're clearly and openly shown as friends.
Yes, who needs a thorough and proper film analysis, after all? Who needs the ideas and methods of film critics? After all, it's just a tv show, and it's quite simple ... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
But do you really need an analysis to prove that they're friends? You don't think it's obvious?

I've been thinking about this for quite a while now and about how to make a sound analysis that would prove that there is a romance going on and not just friendship.

What do you think of this:

To me, you would have to take a Sherlock episode and basically count how many codes for friendship there are and how many codes for romance there are.

Then you have to take a TV show with two characters that remained just friends at the end, like Next Gen's Data and Geordie. You have to take an episode that focuses on their relationship and also count the codes.

Then you have to select a show where two characters ended up as a couple after a slow burn romance, like X-files. Pick an episode from before they became a couple and count the codes.

Then you have to compare and see if Sherlock is more like Next Gen or X-Files.

Edit: Oh how I wish I had the time to do that.

Last edited by Schmiezi (January 27, 2016 8:59 pm)

nakahara · January 27, 2016 9:00 pm

Vhanja wrote:
Whisky wrote:
the picture:
It's not balance of probability, it's our expectations.
Very true. It depends a lot on what filter you view the show through. Confirmation bias is a very well-known and widespread tendency. And, no, of course that doesn't only fit Johnlockers. Every person on this planet can fall prey to this tendency.

But that´s exactly what "ballance of probability" is about. You win in court if your claim is more probable that the other party´s:

https://www.quora.com/What-exactly-does-a-balance-of-probability-mean-in-the-season-3-of-Sherlock

And in this case, nude pic with somebody´s head on it would more probably bear a sexual meaning than any other.

Last edited by nakahara (January 27, 2016 9:04 pm)

Harriet · January 27, 2016 9:02 pm

Liberty wrote:
Harriet wrote:
Liberty wrote:
... And it doesn't need camera angles, etc. - they're clearly and openly shown as friends.
Yes, who needs a thorough and proper film analysis, after all? Who needs the ideas and methods of film critics? After all, it's just a tv show, and it's quite simple ... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
But do you really need an analysis to prove that they're friends? You don't think it's obvious?

Your reply is out of context, I'm afraid. Everybody agrees they are friends, but that was not the point at that part of our discussion.