BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Mary

SusiGo · January 7, 2016 10:16 pm

This is wonderful. The scene is indeed a reminder of the 221b scene in HLV, up to John giving the visitor the client's chair.

besleybean · January 8, 2016 6:31 am

I said that , buried along my long notes posts in the TAB thread!

Liberty · January 8, 2016 8:06 am

SusiGo wrote:
Very good point. Does this mean she spied for Mycroft on Sherlock and was spied on by him as well?

And there is this:

http://xistentialangst.tumblr.com/post/136819874542/hudders-and-hiddles-its-easy-to-assume-that

I think that suggests that Mary was working for Mycroft all along. (Which might be interesting in the present day context too, if it translates over!).

SusiGo · January 8, 2016 8:11 am

The interesting thing is that while VictorianMary seems to be working for Mycroft, present day Mary seems to have Mycroft work for her. Just look at his face when she is hacking the database. I get the impression that he did not choose this cooperation but is in one way or other dominated or coerced by Mary.

Mothonthemantel · January 8, 2016 2:09 pm

When Mycroft talks about jealous rages in the spesh , Sherlock seems to be analysing the shootings in HLV . There are a few comments around now mentioning that . This seems to point to Sherlock shooting CAM from rage and jealousy , but doesn't it also follow as Mary is a sort of female rip off of Sherlock, that Mary shot Sherlock from rage and jealousy too.That does fit as a spur of the moment thing , more than the decision as Sherlock explains it and why Sherlock couldn't tell John the truth, and why Mary had to be appeased.

Last edited by Mothonthemantel (January 8, 2016 2:13 pm)

Mothonthemantel · January 8, 2016 2:44 pm

Adding to the above Mary and Sherlock both also lie to John for the same reasons. They don't think he will love them if he knows the truth.

besleybean · January 8, 2016 4:30 pm

Sorry, another thick moment for me...when does Sherlock lie to John?

mrshouse · January 8, 2016 4:41 pm

Reichenbach Falls?

besleybean · January 8, 2016 5:15 pm

Such a minor incident after all!(note to self: speak to the GP about dementia!)
Though to be fair, I would say he followed through his and Mycroft's plan to the letter...they just failed to include John in it. Cos they thought he might blab!
But yeah, there was all that 'fake' and ' magic tricks' stuff.

Liberty · January 8, 2016 6:52 pm

Mothonthemantel wrote:
When Mycroft talks about jealous rages in the spesh , Sherlock seems to be analysing the shootings in HLV . There are a few comments around now mentioning that . This seems to point to Sherlock shooting CAM from rage and jealousy , but doesn't it also follow as Mary is a sort of female rip off of Sherlock, that Mary shot Sherlock from rage and jealousy too.That does fit as a spur of the moment thing , more than the decision as Sherlock explains it and why Sherlock couldn't tell John the truth, and why Mary had to be appeased.

I think there's an aspect there of Sherlock competing with Mycroft - he enlists John's help and puts a huge amount of work into trying to understand the paper, just to try to be one-up on Mycroft - except that he knows he never can be. "Did you understand the murderous jealousy? It's no easy thing for a great mind to contemplate a still greater one". Mary talks about this with Sherlock too.

I know this is OT a little for the Mary thread (might put it somewhere else too) but it seemed to go along with this comment!

besleybean · January 8, 2016 7:08 pm

Mary shot Sherlock cos he was in the wrong place at the wrong time. She thought he would blab to John, which sensibly he eventually did.
As I've said before: it's only a shame Sherlock turned up. Mary would have saved everybody a lot of grief.

Liberty · January 8, 2016 7:43 pm

That's a good point. There doesn't seem to be any "murderous jealousy" in that scene. I think it's a Mycroft/Sherlock thing.

Mothonthemantel · January 8, 2016 8:03 pm

Liberty wrote:
Mothonthemantel wrote:
When Mycroft talks about jealous rages in the spesh , Sherlock seems to be analysing the shootings in HLV . There are a few comments around now mentioning that . This seems to point to Sherlock shooting CAM from rage and jealousy , but doesn't it also follow as Mary is a sort of female rip off of Sherlock, that Mary shot Sherlock from rage and jealousy too.That does fit as a spur of the moment thing , more than the decision as Sherlock explains it and why Sherlock couldn't tell John the truth, and why Mary had to be appeased.
I think there's an aspect there of Sherlock competing with Mycroft - he enlists John's help and puts a huge amount of work into trying to understand the paper, just to try to be one-up on Mycroft - except that he knows he never can be. "Did you understand the murderous jealousy? It's no easy thing for a great mind to contemplate a still greater one". Mary talks about this with Sherlock too.

I know this is OT a little for the Mary thread (might put it somewhere else too) but it seemed to go along with this comment!

But its Sherlock talking to Sherlock about understanding why someone got shot.He imagines Mycroft pointing out his mistakes as usual , which isn't the logic but the sentiment behind the action.
Sherlock and Mary both got shot in situations where they got caught out by people they disliked and were very angry and impulsive about it.

mrshouse · January 8, 2016 8:11 pm

Good point, moth.

nakahara · January 8, 2016 8:28 pm

Mothonthemantel wrote:
Liberty wrote:
I think there's an aspect there of Sherlock competing with Mycroft - he enlists John's help and puts a huge amount of work into trying to understand the paper, just to try to be one-up on Mycroft - except that he knows he never can be. "Did you understand the murderous jealousy? It's no easy thing for a great mind to contemplate a still greater one". Mary talks about this with Sherlock too.

I know this is OT a little for the Mary thread (might put it somewhere else too) but it seemed to go along with this comment!

But its Sherlock talking to Sherlock about understanding why someone got shot.He imagines Mycroft pointing out his mistakes as usual , which isn't the logic but the sentiment behind the action.
Sherlock and Mary both got shot in situations where they got caught out by people they disliked and were very angry and impulsive about it.

I cease to see either of them as angry and impulsive.
Mary was very calculating and under an amazing self-controll when she shot Sherlock.
Sherlock was entirely broken and very desperate. He only pretended rage to give himself courage to actually shoot at someone, IMHO.

besleybean · January 8, 2016 8:31 pm

Tell that to the dead guy! Tee Hee.

Liberty · January 8, 2016 8:59 pm

nakahara wrote:
Mothonthemantel wrote:
Liberty wrote:
I think there's an aspect there of Sherlock competing with Mycroft - he enlists John's help and puts a huge amount of work into trying to understand the paper, just to try to be one-up on Mycroft - except that he knows he never can be. "Did you understand the murderous jealousy? It's no easy thing for a great mind to contemplate a still greater one". Mary talks about this with Sherlock too.

I know this is OT a little for the Mary thread (might put it somewhere else too) but it seemed to go along with this comment!

But its Sherlock talking to Sherlock about understanding why someone got shot.He imagines Mycroft pointing out his mistakes as usual , which isn't the logic but the sentiment behind the action.
Sherlock and Mary both got shot in situations where they got caught out by people they disliked and were very angry and impulsive about it.

I cease to see either of them as angry and impulsive.
Mary was very calculating and under an amazing self-controll when she shot Sherlock.
Sherlock was entirely broken and very desperate. He only pretended rage to give himself courage to actually shoot at someone, IMHO.

Yes, one thing both of them have in common is seeing their action as the only solution - but I don't see rage or jealousy in either case.

How it ties into the case ... well, I wonder if there is a connection with Moriarty being envious of Sherlock's slightly greater intellect? Just a thought, and not one I'm particularly tied to at the moment .

Mothonthemantel · January 8, 2016 9:35 pm

I guess anyone could be right as to what thesentiment is.
Point being . Sherlock reconsiders his logical reasons for the shootings and ascribes them to sentiment.

nakahara · January 9, 2016 11:12 pm

Mary as a cutthroat? LOL!

http://bobenlugares.tumblr.com/post/136916492999/yall-remember-that-time-when-mary-was-ready-to

SusiGo · January 20, 2016 2:57 pm

This is exactly how I think about the "woman in black" scene:

http://johnnlocked.tumblr.com/post/137685929681/weweretoldandwelistened-hang-on-now-that-im

If you compare this version (in Sherlock's head) to the Leinster Gardens scene there is a distinct lack of passion in Mind Palace Mary. She never cries, she never says she would do anything to keep John. I wonder that it tells us about Sherlock's perception of her (in contrast to how he outwardly behaves).