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January 11, 2015 8:31 pm  #21


Re: thoughts on rooftop scene after watching the empty hearse [spoilers]

http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/tongue.png
TBH, it could also be a pic of Shaun the sheep.


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I still believe that love conquers all!

http://i1353.photobucket.com/albums/q666/Schmiezi/f78f2088-06ef-444c-b254-d9efa841bc19_zps435390b3.png      http://i1353.photobucket.com/albums/q666/Schmiezi/140545df-e987-4a67-9272-fa8b2742790c_zpsa8b00ed8.png

"Quick, man, if you love me."
 

January 11, 2015 8:55 pm  #22


Re: thoughts on rooftop scene after watching the empty hearse [spoilers]

Isn´t Shaun supposed to have a fluffy white coat? http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/wink.png


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I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

http://49.media.tumblr.com/eb0e156f55878fcd6f89dcf91ae89811/tumblr_o0eyyzrphE1spvwrzo2_1280.gif
 

January 12, 2015 5:32 am  #23


Re: thoughts on rooftop scene after watching the empty hearse [spoilers]

Weeell, if it is really a picture of the fall, what a strange coincidence that you can see it behind Mary ... There surely is a meta on that already. http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/wink.png


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I still believe that love conquers all!

http://i1353.photobucket.com/albums/q666/Schmiezi/f78f2088-06ef-444c-b254-d9efa841bc19_zps435390b3.png      http://i1353.photobucket.com/albums/q666/Schmiezi/140545df-e987-4a67-9272-fa8b2742790c_zpsa8b00ed8.png

"Quick, man, if you love me."
 

January 12, 2015 8:04 am  #24


Re: thoughts on rooftop scene after watching the empty hearse [spoilers]

Well, I have a theory that Sherlock has a hobby as a stuntman and that he amused himself by jumping from the roofs when he was younger (and this is a photograph of one of his stunts). That´s how he survived The Reichenbach Fall. http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/tongue.png

Last edited by nakahara (January 12, 2015 8:04 am)


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I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

http://49.media.tumblr.com/eb0e156f55878fcd6f89dcf91ae89811/tumblr_o0eyyzrphE1spvwrzo2_1280.gif
 

January 12, 2015 1:46 pm  #25


Re: thoughts on rooftop scene after watching the empty hearse [spoilers]

Just my two cents about the original questions first:

zeratul wrote:

- Sherlock seems to be really surprised about what Moriaty does, but concerning what he tells Andersson he was not, because he knew Mycroft was feeding Moriaty information? (We know from TRF that Mycroft did in some way.)

I think there are moments when is really is surprised by Moriarty’s actions. Even if Sherlock and Mycroft have a plan, they are up against a worthy opponent, so they will have to alter their plan as they go, because Moriarty is no goldfish.


zeratul wrote:

- Sherlock is crying on the rooftop and he also seems surprised about Moriaty forcing him to jump? Or is he just crying because he knows what he does to John?

I think (and I know not everyone agrees with me) that Sherlock is simply a terrific actor. He puts on a great performance for Moriarty and John. He does a similar thing in the tube scene in TEH and again when he pretends to be in a relationship with Janie in HLV. I don’t think there is true surprise there, out of the 13 possibilities of escaping the rooftop, jumping (or at least a fake version of it) was a likely outcome after the warning Moriarty had given him at 221B.


zeratul wrote:

- Did Sherlock want Moriaty to stop his snipers or did he want to talk him into dying, but he says later he didn't anticipate his death wish.

I believe that the original plan was to call of the snipers, that likely was the most beneficial of the 13 possible outcomes for all involved. Interestingly, the blue pillow solution we are expected to believe is the way it all happened only works if Moriarty is no longer on the rooftop or at Bart’s in general. He would have noticed a gigantic blue air-filled cushion. This is one of the reasons why I do not believe the solution TPTB have presented us with.


zeratul wrote:

- In TRF we see a sniper packing his stuff, how does it fits that he was threadened / shot by Mycrofts guys?

I have the exact same question. The sniper does not seem tense or even surprised at all. Also, he would have to be shot if one was to believe the cushion solution, because the cushion was moved around the ambulance building; out of John’s eye-line, but directly into the eye-line of the sniper. So for the official version to work, the sniper would have to be killed, but who then called off his colleagues? Again, the cushion and the fact that it is moves around a lot makes is impossible for anyone at the scene but John to believe Sherlock actually just killed himself

zeratul wrote:

- Then again, in TRF there is blood on the stones before the point when they brought the corpse in. It is removed / has been reshot for TEH.

I don’t know if that is a hint or just a continuity error, but is suspect the later.


zeratul wrote:

- We see in TRF that Sherlock asks Molly for help. But nothing about Mycroft.

I am not sure if we can be certain that just because we did not see it, it did not happen. Also I believe that the plan and all possible deviations from it where planed out in advance, so that direct communication between the brother’s, which might have been overheard, was kept to an absolute minimum.


zeratul wrote:

- The most interesting point is still: How did Sherlock know, Moriaty made him jump and why did he seem to be surprised that much when he does?

Kind of what I said for the second question. Moriarty had basically told him back at 221B that he would have to fall, not a big leap to take that as a literal fall/jump. Also Sherlock gave and had to give a stellar performance on that roof, if he did not anticipate Moriarty to kill himself. He needed him to believe that he had won.
 
About the ‘Molly counts’ question: Sherlock assumed (rightfully so) that she would not be on Moriarty’s list. But he checks anyway, he makes Moriarty spell out who he plans to take out, only then does he proceed with the plan. Apparently Moriarty needs Mycroft alive, but under his influence. Remember that Sherlock was originally targeted to get to Mycroft (as we learn in SIB). To Moriarty, Sherlock is the most fascinating toy on earth, but it is Mycroft who he is really after and Sherlock is Mycroft’s only weak spot (which is kind of dark now that we know that their parents are still alive). So it does not make any sense for Moriarty to threaten Sherlock with killing Mycroft, because they all know he would not do it, if he had wanted to get rid of Mycroft in that fashion he could have done so a long time ago.
 
The picture in the background: for me this is too blurry an image to draw any conclusions, might as well be taken on the beach with someone’s arms spread out http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/smile.png

 
All just my humble opinion of course.

 


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We balance probabilities and choose the most likely. It is the scientific use of the imagination.    http://i.picasion.com/av/83/2rrf.jpg
 

January 12, 2015 1:54 pm  #26


Re: thoughts on rooftop scene after watching the empty hearse [spoilers]

I really like your thoughts. http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/grin.png


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

http://49.media.tumblr.com/eb0e156f55878fcd6f89dcf91ae89811/tumblr_o0eyyzrphE1spvwrzo2_1280.gif
 

January 12, 2015 2:10 pm  #27


Re: thoughts on rooftop scene after watching the empty hearse [spoilers]

Thank you http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/smile.png


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We balance probabilities and choose the most likely. It is the scientific use of the imagination.    http://i.picasion.com/av/83/2rrf.jpg
 

January 12, 2015 2:17 pm  #28


Re: thoughts on rooftop scene after watching the empty hearse [spoilers]

Good post, Lola Red. I have a comment about him crying on the roof top:

I think it has been confirmed by Moftiss that he was acting for John. However, all he would have needed was a shaky voice through the phone, he was so far away that John wouldn't be able to see his tears anyway. So he didn't need to cry to sell the scene. That is what confuses me a bit.


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings
http://i.imgur.com/NzWTIDd.png

Team Hudders!
 
 

January 12, 2015 9:17 pm  #29


Re: thoughts on rooftop scene after watching the empty hearse [spoilers]

Vhanja, good point about the crying. I tend to believe it was still part of the performance. I’m not an actor, but to me it seems easier to make your voice crack when you allow yourself to tear up at the same time. We already learn in TGG that Sherlock can make himself cry very easily, though the performance he puts on for John is infinitively better.
I can think of two other reasons why he could be crying on that rooftop. Either because out of empathy for John or because he himself cannot stand the thought of not knowing when or if he is going to see his friend again. I personally read Sherlock’s behaviour in TEH as him not yet having truly understood what he has put John through, however noble his reasons. I don’t think he would have come back the way he did if he had understood how much John was suffering. That is why I do not think he was crying on John’s behalf on the rooftop. The last scene in HLV for me shows how Sherlock actually deals with this kind of good byes. At this point he truly does not know if he will ever see John again, he even believes he will not survive for another 6 months. His reaction is very different to the rooftop scene. He does not know what to say, tries to lighten the mood, does not quite know what to do with himself, but he does not tear up. I believe that the rooftop scene is entirely (and superbly) acted on Sherlock’s part, to keep the people he loves save. I think he believes that he can beat Moriarty’s network and that the question of his return is not so much about the If? as it is about the When?, which gives him no reasons to cry on the rooftop apart from his acting performance. There might be other very valid interpretations, so this is once more just my personal opinion.
 
All that being said, I have learned not to trust everything (anything?) we are shown on this show, so if, for example, it turns out that Sherlock always knew he was not going back to eastern Europe, I will reconsider what I just said, it might turn out I don’t have enough data yet http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/wink.png

 


****************************************************************************************************************************************
We balance probabilities and choose the most likely. It is the scientific use of the imagination.    http://i.picasion.com/av/83/2rrf.jpg
 

January 13, 2015 5:42 am  #30


Re: thoughts on rooftop scene after watching the empty hearse [spoilers]

Vhanja wrote:

Good post, Lola Red. I have a comment about him crying on the roof top:

I think it has been confirmed by Moftiss that he was acting for John. However, all he would have needed was a shaky voice through the phone, he was so far away that John wouldn't be able to see his tears anyway. So he didn't need to cry to sell the scene. That is what confuses me a bit.

(I don't want to start THAT debate again, but ...) http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/wink.png

It's a case of Occam's razor again. IMO He cries because right there on the rooftop, he understands that he is about to leave John after hurting him - a lot. He cries because despite his planning, he is simply sad and overwhelmed by it.
That also explains his less than sensible behaviour in TEH. He is hurt and rather ignores that JOhn could be hurt too. He has no idea how to deal with that one, so he rather plays out a "joke" at the restaurant.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I still believe that love conquers all!

http://i1353.photobucket.com/albums/q666/Schmiezi/f78f2088-06ef-444c-b254-d9efa841bc19_zps435390b3.png      http://i1353.photobucket.com/albums/q666/Schmiezi/140545df-e987-4a67-9272-fa8b2742790c_zpsa8b00ed8.png

"Quick, man, if you love me."
 

January 13, 2015 6:53 am  #31


Re: thoughts on rooftop scene after watching the empty hearse [spoilers]

Yep, I agree with all of this completely.


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

January 13, 2015 8:49 am  #32


Re: thoughts on rooftop scene after watching the empty hearse [spoilers]

To me, your explanation makes the most sense, Lola. I've never thought about that before, comparing it to the tarmac scene. That is a very good point! Also a good point about it reflecting on the reunion scene and Sherlock's cluelessness. 

And yes, I do believe the performace would be easier with crying. It's as with voice actors flailing around and sort of acting out the scenes, because it makes it easier for the relevant emotions to come across in their voice.


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings
http://i.imgur.com/NzWTIDd.png

Team Hudders!
 
 

January 13, 2015 9:25 am  #33


Re: thoughts on rooftop scene after watching the empty hearse [spoilers]

I think there's a bit of both - genuine emotion (Molly notices that Sherlock is sad - he is aware of the loss that he's going to have experience) and acting.  It's part of a planned performance, but that doesn't mean he's not feeling anything. 

However, he has to also prepare for acting dead - having no reaction when a highly distressed John touches him.    He has to create that detachment.    If it had all been genuine emotion and no acting, he'd still have been crying on the ground (or at least, he'd have found it difficult not to show some reaction). 

 

January 13, 2015 9:28 am  #34


Re: thoughts on rooftop scene after watching the empty hearse [spoilers]

I agree,  I would like to think that the acting bit came very easy to him because he was already sad. But that is another good point - he would have to be in control of his emotions to keep a clear mind for the rest of the stunt, including lying perfectly still. 


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings
http://i.imgur.com/NzWTIDd.png

Team Hudders!
 
 

July 14, 2015 9:29 pm  #35


Re: thoughts on rooftop scene after watching the empty hearse [spoilers]

Don't know where to put my question, so I'll take this thread.
On the rooftop Sherlock tells Moriarty "I am you. I am you." What does he mean by saying this? Why doesn't he say "I am LIKE you"? Or did I get anything wrong? Well, this scene is still swirling in my head ...


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I'm your landlady - not a plot device!

There are 10 voices in my head. 9 of them tell me I'm crazy. One is humming.
 

July 14, 2015 9:39 pm  #36


Re: thoughts on rooftop scene after watching the empty hearse [spoilers]

I think it was just means as a "I am like you", but to emphasise it more. That he, like Moriarty, was "prepared to burn" and would do anything to get what he wanted.


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings
http://i.imgur.com/NzWTIDd.png

Team Hudders!
 
 

July 16, 2015 7:07 pm  #37


Re: thoughts on rooftop scene after watching the empty hearse [spoilers]

Vhanja wrote:

I think it was just means as a "I am like you", but to emphasise it more. That he, like Moriarty, was "prepared to burn" and would do anything to get what he wanted.

 Thanks! I was tending to this explanation, too, but wanted to know if anyone saw it differently.


-----------------------------------------------------------------
I'm your landlady - not a plot device!

There are 10 voices in my head. 9 of them tell me I'm crazy. One is humming.
 

January 7, 2016 5:15 am  #38


Re: thoughts on rooftop scene after watching the empty hearse [spoilers]

______________________________________

Here's a nice analysis of the version that Sherlock told Anderson and why it's a joke from the first word to the last.  Enoy it, folks. I'm proud of it.


Sherlock's version of the hoax, told to Anderson

Last edited by Bruce Cook (January 7, 2016 5:16 am)


A good debate is like a fencing match — you don't have to win to get a good workout.
 

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