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January 4, 2016 4:31 pm  #2701


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

I think Sherlock has to take some responsibility for his actions.
You could just as easily argue it was John's fault Sherlock shot CAM, seeing as it was John's gun that was used.
And Sherlock was only on that plane because of murdering CAM.

Last edited by besleybean (January 4, 2016 4:32 pm)


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January 4, 2016 4:47 pm  #2702


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

besleybean wrote:

I think Sherlock has to take some responsibility for his actions.
You could just as easily argue it was John's fault Sherlock shot CAM, seeing as it was John's gun that was used.
And Sherlock was only on that plane because of murdering CAM.

"Tell Mary that she is safe..."
That line alone is the proof that both Sherlock and John were involved in CAM´s murder because of "that wife".
And being sent to death does not count as "taking a responsibility for your actions" in your book? I wonder, what does, then.
 


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I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

 

January 4, 2016 4:50 pm  #2703


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

I'm not explaining well - I don't think Mary would plan to kill Sherlock over the USB - she gives that to John freely.  However, possibly there's something on it other than what we've been told - that Mary is an assassin and a secret agent.   It would be personally hurtful for John to find out that she started the relationship with him because she was paid or tasked to so (in that episode, Janine is hurt by a similar thing).

Also we don't know that she ever tried to kill Sherlock.  If you watch Sherlock's explanation it looks as if she shot to incapacitate.  I agree that it's a crappy plot point, because they made him "die", BUT Sherlock knows that and still deduces that Mary didn't mean to kill him.   John accepts that, and there's no attempt to get rid of Mary or act as if she's a risk. 

It looks as if the shooting took place in that one situation, to buy Mary time.  There is no risk now Magnussen is dead and John knows about Mary.  I'm not arguing about whether it's a ridiculously extreme and cruel reaction or not, but about whether Mary's a risk now, and whether she's being paid (or has personaly decided) to kill Sherlock, given what we know

Finding out that Mycroft is in on the Mary thing, is actually quite a big revelation (even if we might have guessed!) that's somehow being lost in all the other stuff from TAB.

 

January 4, 2016 4:54 pm  #2704


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Yes, we need to focus...
Plus, Sherlock is a remarkably healthy looking corpse...I can't say the same for Cam and who the heck knows about Moriarty?


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January 4, 2016 4:59 pm  #2705


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Liberty wrote:

I'm not explaining well - I don't think Mary would plan to kill Sherlock over the USB - she gives that to John freely.  However, possibly there's something on it other than what we've been told - that Mary is an assassin and a secret agent.   It would be personally hurtful for John to find out that she started the relationship with him because she was paid or tasked to so (in that episode, Janine is hurt by a similar thing).

Also we don't know that she ever tried to kill Sherlock.  If you watch Sherlock's explanation it looks as if she shot to incapacitate.  I agree that it's a crappy plot point, because they made him "die", BUT Sherlock knows that and still deduces that Mary didn't mean to kill him.   John accepts that, and there's no attempt to get rid of Mary or act as if she's a risk. 

It looks as if the shooting took place in that one situation, to buy Mary time.  There is no risk now Magnussen is dead and John knows about Mary.  I'm not arguing about whether it's a ridiculously extreme and cruel reaction or not, but about whether Mary's a risk now, and whether she's being paid (or has personaly decided) to kill Sherlock, given what we know

Finding out that Mycroft is in on the Mary thing, is actually quite a big revelation (even if we might have guessed!) that's somehow being lost in all the other stuff from TAB.

Well and Mary couldn´t kill CAM quickly, turn to Sherlock and tell him "I did this on Mycroft´s order, stay out of this" because....?
She needed to buy time.... for what? She needed to incapaciate Sherlock while leaving CAM alive... why?
If she was paid to kill CAM by Mycroft, why did she never try to repeat the attempt on his life, ever?
And above all - Mycroft only hires pregnant agents on assassin missions? Really?
 


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

 

January 4, 2016 5:12 pm  #2706


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

It could have been rather that Mycroft merely knew Mary was after Cam and was just prepared to let that run its course...


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January 4, 2016 5:16 pm  #2707


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

I think it's explained in HLV, if you watch Sherlock's deduction.  I don't think it's a great explanation (there are  a few issues I have with that episode, and the deduction, even though I love the episode), but it's there. 

We don't know for certain that Mycroft sent Mary to kill Magnussen.  It is a possibility (I've pondered whether Mycroft could be OK with assassination, and I think that it's possible he would be, in certain circumstances).   My guess is not (because he said Magnussen was under his protection), but I do think it's a possibilty, and I also think Mycroft really wanted rid of Magnussen - he was a risk to the country. 

It doesn't really matter if she was working for Mycroft of not, she didn't try to kill Magnussen again because Sherlock exposed her, I'm sure.   I don't think either Sherlock or John were ready at that point to accept that Magnussen needed to be killed, and I don't think they'd have been OK with her going off and doing it.  Instead they take her on as a client, she takes a back seat and they try to deal with him by other means (but end up killing him anyway!   But I do think Sherlock had to go through a certain thought process to get there).

I'm not sure what you mean about Mycroft only hiring pregnant agents.

 

January 4, 2016 5:28 pm  #2708


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Liberty wrote:

I'm not sure what you mean about Mycroft only hiring pregnant agents.

I made that remark in connection with the theory that Mycroft hired Mary to get rid of CAM and that´s why he warned Sherlock to stay out of this etc.

Mary was at that time officially pregnant with John. Now, I´m not sure if Mycroft would hire pregnant woman for such a job, even if she was super-effective in it.... 

Of course, if he knew she wasn´t pregnant, the thing looks entirely different.

As to the question if she could fool both John and Sherlock with fake pregnancy, I can answer: yes. As we know, Mary is super-assassin, super-hacker, James Bond and God all turned into one and she can outwit both of them at any minute - so why couldn´t she do this, I wonder?  

Last edited by nakahara (January 4, 2016 5:29 pm)


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

 

January 4, 2016 5:33 pm  #2709


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

That's assuming she and John aren't sleeping together, she never undresses in front of him or they're never in the bathroom together etc....and she fixed the scan.
Oh sorry, did you just mean in that the baby's not John's?


(I have to say, this whole line of discussion reminds me of the Sophie haters+ the fake pregnancy)

Last edited by besleybean (January 4, 2016 5:33 pm)


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January 4, 2016 5:33 pm  #2710


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

I see what you mean - I was trying to think of any other pregnant agents that we knew of!  I think Mycroft would hire the right person for the job.  Mary seems unlikely considering how close she is to him, but I don't think pregnancy would necessarily be a barrier.  (And Sherlock's mind palace Mycroft seems to be an equal opportunity employer).

 

January 4, 2016 5:52 pm  #2711


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

besleybean wrote:

That's assuming she and John aren't sleeping together, she never undresses in front of him or they're never in the bathroom together etc....and she fixed the scan.
Oh sorry, did you just mean in that the baby's not John's?


(I have to say, this whole line of discussion reminds me of the Sophie haters+ the fake pregnancy)

Cotact the mods and make request of them to place a header on top of the index page, next to a spoiler warnings: It is compulsory to only praise Mary in this forum. Any theories about her motives and her negative role in the story are considered to be a heresy from now on and are thus forbidden.

I would act according to this warning after that, thank you.
 

Last edited by nakahara (January 4, 2016 6:01 pm)


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

 

January 4, 2016 6:11 pm  #2712


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

This is the mixture of real life actors and fictional characters that we wanted to avoid, besley.


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Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.


"If you're not reading the subtext then hell mend you"  -  Steven Moffat
"Love conquers all" Benedict Cumberbatch on Sherlock's and John's relationship
"This is a show about a detective, his best friend, his wife, their baby and their dog" - Nobody. Ever.

 

January 4, 2016 6:12 pm  #2713


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

MOD:  We only ask that you discuss plot and character's here, not real live people, and that you do it without insulting any forum member directly.


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Proud President and Founder of the OSAJ.  
Honorary German  
"Anyone who takes himself too seriously always runs the risk of looking ridiculous; anyone who can consistently laugh at himself does not".
 -Vaclav Havel 
"Life is full of wonder, Love is never wrong."   Melissa Ethridge

I ship it harder than Mrs. Hudson.
    
 
 

January 4, 2016 6:14 pm  #2714


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Thank you, tonnaree.
Or is this to say that every user here who discusses Mary critically is in cahoots with those lunatic haters?


------------------------------------------------------------

Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.


"If you're not reading the subtext then hell mend you"  -  Steven Moffat
"Love conquers all" Benedict Cumberbatch on Sherlock's and John's relationship
"This is a show about a detective, his best friend, his wife, their baby and their dog" - Nobody. Ever.

 

January 4, 2016 6:15 pm  #2715


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Excuse me.
if that is directed at me, I haven't insulted anybody, directly or otherwise...only possibly any Sophie haters.
I am sorry, but to me (or at least my brain) it was an obvious comparison. I'm only surprised nobody else thought of it.
If you wish me to remove the comment I will, but I strongly object to being wrongly accused...of anything,actually.


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January 4, 2016 6:33 pm  #2716


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

besleybean wrote:

Excuse me.
if that is directed at me, I haven't insulted anybody, directly or otherwise...only possibly any Sophie haters.
I am sorry, but to me (or at least my brain) it was an obvious comparison. I'm only surprised nobody else thought of it.
If you wish me to remove the comment I will, but I strongly object to being wrongly accused...of anything,actually.

I didn´t accuse you of anything.
But stop treating Mary - a fictional character we know nothing about - as the real life people.
RL people could be hurt by such debate, fictional characters - by their very definition - can´t. So they are a free game to be discussed from any angle. Mary is no exception.
 

Last edited by nakahara (January 4, 2016 6:34 pm)


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

 

January 4, 2016 6:40 pm  #2717


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

My comment was in response to the mod post.
I am not treating Mary as a real person.
I am sure RL people could be hurt if they were aware of hate.
I not only didn't engage in any hate, I spoke out against it.
I not only don't mind Mary being discussed form every angle, I have actually encouraged it.


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January 4, 2016 7:04 pm  #2718


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

TOPIC!

In Sherlock there is a character named Mary.
Some people like her and some people don't
She did things in the recent special that are worth discussing.

Carry on! 
 


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Proud President and Founder of the OSAJ.  
Honorary German  
"Anyone who takes himself too seriously always runs the risk of looking ridiculous; anyone who can consistently laugh at himself does not".
 -Vaclav Havel 
"Life is full of wonder, Love is never wrong."   Melissa Ethridge

I ship it harder than Mrs. Hudson.
    
 
 

January 4, 2016 7:07 pm  #2719


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

nakahara wrote:

besleybean wrote:

That's assuming she and John aren't sleeping together, she never undresses in front of him or they're never in the bathroom together etc....and she fixed the scan.
Oh sorry, did you just mean in that the baby's not John's?


(I have to say, this whole line of discussion reminds me of the Sophie haters+ the fake pregnancy)

Cotact the mods and make request of them to place a header on top of the index page, next to a spoiler warnings: It is compulsory to only praise Mary in this forum. Any theories about her motives and her negative role in the story are considered to be a heresy from now on and are thus forbidden.

I would act according to this warning after that, thank you.
 

I just almost fell off my chair laughing. You are AWESOME, Nakahara!!!!! 

Dang. 

Also-- folks should try to remember that Sophie is a Real Human Being-- while Mary is a fictional character. You can't hurt Mary's feelings. Nothing we do will even affect Mary, because She's Not Real. :-) 

 

January 4, 2016 7:08 pm  #2720


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Yes, I think we've all got that now.


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