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January 3, 2016 9:19 pm  #2661


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Of course not, that's true for any of us.
But until we are shown Mary is not forgiven, I will accept that she is.


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January 3, 2016 9:24 pm  #2662


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Good for you.


___________________________________________________
"Am I the current King of England?

"I see no shame in having an unhealthy obsession with something." - David Tennant
"We did observe." - David Tennant in "Richard II"

 
 

January 3, 2016 9:30 pm  #2663


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Yes, we're talking (I think) about what the characters feel and believe, rather than what we do. 

If Mycroft really cares about Sherlock what good would getting rid of Mary do now, if she's no risk to him?  (And as I said, we haven't been given anything in the show, what we see on screen, to show that she's an ongoing risk).  We don't know if Mycroft knows Mary shot Sherlock - but then we didn't know Mycroft knew anything until TAB, and suddenly it seems like he already knows about Mary.   I find it difficult to think of him not considering that Mary might have been involved in Sherlock's shooting - knowing who Mary was, presumably knowing she was after Magnussen, etc.   So my guess (it's just a guess) is that he knows, and accepts it in the way that John and Sherlock do - whether or not he forgives, he knows he's not putting Sherlock at risk. 

It's difficult to tell how pregnant Mary is in the plane scene, because her clothes are loose and she's leaning forward.  But I don't see why she would be less pregnant then a few minutes ago. 

 

January 3, 2016 9:33 pm  #2664


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

I have to say I'm finding that whole train of thought rather amusing.
Some things may be unclear...
But a baby(or not baby) cannot be hidden forever!


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January 3, 2016 9:48 pm  #2665


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

besleybean wrote:

The commentaries are part of the show...presented by the team.
I  read their interviews and articles.
I like things from the horses' mouths.
Sometimes I have to accept things they say, even though I disagree with them.
Because BBC  Sherlock is their vision and not mine.
 

With all respect, I have problems understanding your logic and why you tell us YOUR ideas then?
Wouldn't it be more appropriate if we follow your logic, to not run a discussion board but wait for the next revelation?

(But since I don't agree with you here, that probably applies not to me.)
 


Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.   Independent OSAJ Affiliate

... but there may be some new players now. It’s okay. The East Wind takes us all in the end.
 

January 3, 2016 9:51 pm  #2666


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

There is plenty in the episodes to discuss.
Plenty in the commentaries to discuss, the extras the interviews etc...
I am also interested in other peoples contributions.
Yes I also have some views of mine...even if they may appear at odds to those of the team


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January 3, 2016 9:52 pm  #2667


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

nakahara wrote:

SusiGo wrote:

Btw, do we really believe that the first plane scene is real? I have been reading some interesting things explaining that only the last plane scene might be real. This would explain Mycroft's bizarre behaviour. 

And there is one thing I find strange there. She is leaning forward in her seat. Having been pregnant twice I seem to remember that it is far more comfortable to recline when sitting because you do not squeeze your baby belly when doing so. In the Christmas scene in HLV she reclines, strokes her belly, needs John to help her up from the chair. In the plane we see nothing of that. Just an idea. 

True. She probably forgot to wear her cushion for a while, for she doesn´t seem to have any belly at all in this scene:


 

HA!

 

January 3, 2016 10:27 pm  #2668


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

For me one of the most important moments:

Mary leads Sherlock and John to the abandoned church. There she calls Mycroft "the clever one", ignoring Sherlock, an allusion to Irene in the plane scene. "Not you, junior. You're done now." But she is even worse than Irene, stating that she works for Mycroft, spying on the "mad sibling", full of contempt. She is doing the one thing John refused to do from the beginning and by which he gained Mycroft's respect. Of course the church scene is not real but it is how Sherlock chooses to view Mary in his mind. Which is quite telling. 

Last edited by SusiGo (January 3, 2016 10:30 pm)


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

January 3, 2016 10:34 pm  #2669


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

To be fair, Mycroft and Sherlock seem to agree that Mycroft is the clever one!
I took it that Mary was using Mycroft's words about Sherlock.


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January 3, 2016 10:37 pm  #2670


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

You think Mycroft would call Sherlock his "mad sibling" to anyone? Have we ever heard him talking like that about his brother? I cannot remember and it would be completely out of character for Mycroft. 

Last edited by SusiGo (January 3, 2016 10:38 pm)


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

January 3, 2016 10:37 pm  #2671


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

But for sure she offered Sherlock to split the fee?!?   


Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.   Independent OSAJ Affiliate

... but there may be some new players now. It’s okay. The East Wind takes us all in the end.
 

January 3, 2016 10:37 pm  #2672


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Good point about spying on Sherlock - do you think Sherlock suspects Mycroft has sent Mary to spy on him in real life?  Maybe that was the capacity in which she was working for Mycroft?  (Presumably he does have spies for that purpose, although not usually with such a personal relationship). 

 

January 3, 2016 10:40 pm  #2673


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Was it just coincidence she met John?
We know she fostered a friendship with Janine.


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January 3, 2016 10:44 pm  #2674


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Harriet. I very much hope so. 

Liberty: I think he might have this idea. We have discussed the curious lack of contact between Mycroft and John in a series which is told from Sherlock's POV. So might have his suspicions. 

Besley: I never thought it was coincidence she met John. 


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

January 3, 2016 10:47 pm  #2675


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Not that means she doesn't love him, of course.


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January 3, 2016 10:57 pm  #2676


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Heaven forbid! 


Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.   Independent OSAJ Affiliate

... but there may be some new players now. It’s okay. The East Wind takes us all in the end.
 

January 3, 2016 10:57 pm  #2677


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Where it gets complicated is that Mary met John when Mycroft knew Sherlock was off abroad.  Why would he send Mary to spy on Sherlock in London if he was demolishing Moriarty's network elsewhere?   However, I suppose he could have sent Mary to keep an eye on John while Sherlock's away (particularly knowing that Sherlock might want to make contact).   After all, Mycroft admits to keeping tabs on John and happens to know exactly where he's eating out when Sherlock comes back - would be very easy if Mary was his contact! 

It would also fit in with "you won't love me any more" - the truth is that Mary got close to John to spy on him (even if she genuinely fell for him). 

Also explains, obviously, why Mycroft is aware of who Mary is when they're in the plane - they've been working together for a long time.

 

January 3, 2016 11:36 pm  #2678


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Liberty wrote:

Where it gets complicated is that Mary met John when Mycroft knew Sherlock was off abroad.  Why would he send Mary to spy on Sherlock in London if he was demolishing Moriarty's network elsewhere?   However, I suppose he could have sent Mary to keep an eye on John while Sherlock's away (particularly knowing that Sherlock might want to make contact).   After all, Mycroft admits to keeping tabs on John and happens to know exactly where he's eating out when Sherlock comes back - would be very easy if Mary was his contact! 

It would also fit in with "you won't love me any more" - the truth is that Mary got close to John to spy on him (even if she genuinely fell for him). 

Also explains, obviously, why Mycroft is aware of who Mary is when they're in the plane - they've been working together for a long time.

Uhm, so Mary killed Sherlock in HLV to prevent John from realising that she is working for Mycroft?

Well.... and you are still sure she is not an ongoing danger to Sherlock? When she killed him, the brother of her employer, for such twaddle?
 


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I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

 

January 3, 2016 11:51 pm  #2679


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

nakahara wrote:

Liberty wrote:

Where it gets complicated is that Mary met John when Mycroft knew Sherlock was off abroad.  Why would he send Mary to spy on Sherlock in London if he was demolishing Moriarty's network elsewhere?   However, I suppose he could have sent Mary to keep an eye on John while Sherlock's away (particularly knowing that Sherlock might want to make contact).   After all, Mycroft admits to keeping tabs on John and happens to know exactly where he's eating out when Sherlock comes back - would be very easy if Mary was his contact! 

It would also fit in with "you won't love me any more" - the truth is that Mary got close to John to spy on him (even if she genuinely fell for him). 

Also explains, obviously, why Mycroft is aware of who Mary is when they're in the plane - they've been working together for a long time.

Uhm, so Mary killed Sherlock in HLV to prevent John from realising that she is working for Mycroft?

Well.... and you are still sure she is not an ongoing danger to Sherlock? When she killed him, the brother of her employer, for such twaddle?
 

That's a BIG sticking point. Unless we are saying that Mycroft  wanted Sherlock Mortally Wounded, was okay with Mary going after him to Mortally Wound him again-- etc, ad nauseum-- ? 

Honestly, I think Mary was a plant put there by Moriarty's minions-- or she's a bigger part of his organization than we thought. Maybe she's the black widow (reference from TAB) of Moriarty. 

It's also possible that she's a double agent. (That would fit) and so shooting Sherlock was a double cross, one that Mycroft isn't aware of yet, because Sherlock actually bought her story. In other words, he believes the lie that she actually is an ex-intelligence agent on the run, when she's also an assassin working for the other team. Maybe she loves (is obsessed with)  John, but she sure doesn't seem very retired to me...

 

January 3, 2016 11:54 pm  #2680


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

I f Mary was hired by Mycroft to keep an eye on Sherlock-- how was it that she and John and Mycroft didn't know about Sherlock's nightly excursions to the Drugs Den before John (not Mary) found him there and called Mycroft. Shouldn't she have known and alerted Mycroft earlier? Wouldn't that be the big thing he'd hired her to do? He should ask for his money back, then. :-)

 

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