BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Mary

Lilythiell · January 3, 2016 8:37 pm

Yes, sorry.
My point still stands, though (I think). If Mycroft's been played by another character, why wouldn't he be by another?

besleybean · January 3, 2016 8:39 pm

But hang on...Moriarty uses Irene to get the info...I'm not really sure how Mycroft was supposed to guess that would happen. He had no direct contact with Moriarty before, either.

nakahara · January 3, 2016 8:41 pm

Lilythiell wrote:
Yes, sorry.
My point still stands, though (I think). If Mycroft's been played by another character, why wouldn't he be by another?

True.
And if Mary is indeed in cahoots with Mycroft, isn´t it possible she fed him false informations about Sherlock´s shooter?

RavenMorganLeigh · January 3, 2016 8:43 pm

SusiGo wrote:
An observation from tumblr:

I find it very interesting that after the bride lifts her veil and Moriarty is revealed,he tells Sherlock "You're dreaming" and Sherlock returns to modern times,where Mary is saying the exact same words to him.

Good catch!

Last edited by RavenMorganLeigh (January 3, 2016 8:43 pm)

RavenMorganLeigh · January 3, 2016 8:47 pm

nakahara wrote:
Lilythiell wrote:
Yes, sorry.
My point still stands, though (I think). If Mycroft's been played by another character, why wouldn't he be by another?
True.
And if Mary is indeed in cahoots with Mycroft, isn´t it possible she fed him false informations about Sherlock´s shooter?

I like that one. Makes sense. Mofftiss is presenting Mary as being (rolls eyes) smarter than Sherlock and Mycroft. So, why couldn't she fool him?

Another idea-- maybe Mary has been placed under Mycroft's "jurisdiction" as a way to keep an eye on her-- after the shooting --at John's and/or Sherlock's request.

Lilythiell · January 3, 2016 8:48 pm

No, neither am I.
But he is supposed exceedingly smart and Moriarty's actions must have left a trace somewhere to make him aware that something was off.

I only wanted to point out that Mycroft may, despite himself, be fooled. He is human, after all.

I'm not sure I'm making much sense, here.
If so, I apologise.

RavenMorganLeigh · January 3, 2016 8:52 pm

nakahara wrote:
Liberty wrote:
Nakahara, you don't think she has a motive in HLV, but the episode does present us with one (whether or not we think it's justified is a different issue altogether - and if she didn't have a motive, then why would she do it?). The things Mary was afraid of were that John would find out and that Magnussen would have her killed. Neither of those are a risk to her now. Magnussen is dead, John has forgiven her. Why would she randomly kill Sherlock now? Of course there might be other stuff in her past - and her future - which might lead her to doing something unpredictable. But on the information we've been given, she's not a current risk.
Liberty, do you really think that Mycroft accepts Mary´s motives for killing Sherlock we were given in HLV?
Like, he is allright that his brother nearly died at Mary´s hand because she was so in love with John and she wanted to keep her past secret from him?
That would mean that Mycroft´s love to his brother is somewhat inferior and less valuable than Mary´s love to John.
Do you really believe that?
Where does the myth of Mycroft being fiercely protective of Sherlock has been born then?

The way I see the scene - Mycroft may be aware that Mary is a secret agent. But he in no way knows Mary is also the person who shot Sherlock. That is inconceivable, IMHO.

Liberty wrote:
The scene I'm talking about is in the plane. Mycroft clearly knows about Mary, yet has been happy for her to be around Sherlock. There's nothing in that scene telling me that they think she's a risk to him.
Mycroft doesn´t seem especially happy that a foreign agent hacked MI5, but he has other concerns in that scene and so he passes that with silence.
Still, in no moment does he seem particularily happy to me.
But your mileage can vary, of course.

Agreed. Mycroft looks like he's been forced to consume a whole lime. Sour.

Another thing-- Mary's awfully cheerful during this scene. I mean Sherlock's nearly died--again, she couldn't be happier. And, why not? If Sherlock dies, no more competition for John's attentions.

Lilythiell · January 3, 2016 8:54 pm

SusiGo wrote:
An observation from tumblr:

I find it very interesting that after the bride lifts her veil and Moriarty is revealed,he tells Sherlock "You're dreaming" and Sherlock returns to modern times,where Mary is saying the exact same words to him.

Huh, I made the same observation earlier on, but didn't post it.
I found it rather striking, but felt that one sentence without any argument might not be enough here.
It's highly open to interpretation, like so many other things in the show...but the M theory comes to mind, in light of all that.

Vhanja · January 3, 2016 8:54 pm

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:
Another thing-- Mary's awfully cheerful during this scene. I mean Sherlock's nearly died--again, she couldn't be happier. And, why not? If Sherlock dies, no more competition for John's attentions.

Mary is nothing if not smart. If she really wished for Sherlock to be dead, she would still know better than to act happy in such situations.

SusiGo · January 3, 2016 8:57 pm

Btw, do we really believe that the first plane scene is real? I have been reading some interesting things explaining that only the last plane scene might be real. This would explain Mycroft's bizarre behaviour.

And there is one thing I find strange there. She is leaning forward in her seat. Having been pregnant twice I seem to remember that it is far more comfortable to recline when sitting because you do not squeeze your baby belly when doing so. In the Christmas scene in HLV she reclines, strokes her belly, needs John to help her up from the chair. In the plane we see nothing of that. Just an idea.

besleybean · January 3, 2016 8:58 pm

She shows concern for him, when he starts coming round.

nakahara · January 3, 2016 9:04 pm

SusiGo wrote:
Btw, do we really believe that the first plane scene is real? I have been reading some interesting things explaining that only the last plane scene might be real. This would explain Mycroft's bizarre behaviour.

And there is one thing I find strange there. She is leaning forward in her seat. Having been pregnant twice I seem to remember that it is far more comfortable to recline when sitting because you do not squeeze your baby belly when doing so. In the Christmas scene in HLV she reclines, strokes her belly, needs John to help her up from the chair. In the plane we see nothing of that. Just an idea.

True. She probably forgot to wear her cushion for a while, for she doesn´t seem to have any belly at all in this scene:

nakahara · January 3, 2016 9:06 pm

Vhanja wrote:
RavenMorganLeigh wrote:
Another thing-- Mary's awfully cheerful during this scene. I mean Sherlock's nearly died--again, she couldn't be happier. And, why not? If Sherlock dies, no more competition for John's attentions.
Mary is nothing if not smart. If she really wished for Sherlock to be dead, she would still know better than to act happy in such situations.

To me it almost seems as if she´s untouchable to Mycroft for some reason (she blackmails him instead of Magnussen maybe?) And she happily flaunts the fact that he cannot touch her around him there on the plane.

SusiGo · January 3, 2016 9:07 pm

Thank you, this is exactly the right moment. Please remember HLV when she was sighing and nearly unable to get up from the chair. And this here is even one week onwards in the pregnancy. Quite unconvincing, if you ask me.

besleybean · January 3, 2016 9:07 pm

@nakahara I am really not seeing this at all.
@Suisi...well she'll either have a baby or not!

Last edited by besleybean (January 3, 2016 9:09 pm)

SusiGo · January 3, 2016 9:08 pm

Yes. Because there is nothing to see. At least no big baby bump.

Vhanja · January 3, 2016 9:09 pm

Could be an oversight from the crew, but I doubt it. The show seems to high a quality to make such a big mistake, but who knows?

SusiGo · January 3, 2016 9:11 pm

I very much doubt that this is an oversight. If you think of their diligence and love for detail.

besleybean · January 3, 2016 9:12 pm

Well as I said, either the baby will come or it won't!

SolarSystem · January 3, 2016 9:17 pm

mrshouse wrote:
We've been over this several times.
Yes, there could have been ways to show her in a more sympathetic light. It was chosen not to do so.
And as I said repeatedly, good for everybody, for whom this works at face value.

Right. I don't have to agree with everything the characters in a tv show are doing. So I don't agree with Sherlock and John forgiving Mary (which I'm still not convinced of anyway, but be that as it may). Just as I didn't agree with Mary shooting Sherlock, or with Mary not telling the truth about her past to John, or with Moriarty killing innocent people for the sake of a game in TGG. As a viewer I simply don't have to accept fictional characters doing things I deem to be wrong. It's as simple as that.