BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Johnlock: The Official Debate

nakahara · January 3, 2016 7:05 pm

besleybean wrote:
I had another thought about the 'elopement' scene...
Was that Mark and Steven eventually pushing Johnlock off the cliff?!

So Moriarty symbolises Johnlock now?
LOL! Since when?

besleybean · January 3, 2016 7:06 pm

Because John pushes him over right after the 'elopement' scene.

mrshouse · January 3, 2016 7:08 pm

Could also be a symbol that they free themselves from repression...

SusiGo · January 3, 2016 7:09 pm

They both push over the person symbolising Sherlock's deepest fears and insecurities. This is how I see it. And they are fine with it. Not eloping in secrecy but "There is always two of us."

besleybean · January 3, 2016 7:10 pm

You mean right after John says Moriarty is impudent and Sherlock says elopement is 'offensive'?

SusiGo · January 3, 2016 7:12 pm

Yes. Because elopement is something associated with secrecy and betrayal. Which they do not want anymore.

besleybean · January 3, 2016 7:14 pm

Ok, so when exactly do you see Sherlock and John getting together and how is it going to happen?
And actually, how are we going to even know it's happened?

Lilythiell · January 3, 2016 7:16 pm

Erm, calling him "John" on the cliff? From what he says, repeatedly.

Watson's intervention "step away from my friend, I think he finds your attention a shade annoying" ?
It could just be gentlemanly behaviour, after all it was ingrained so deep in people's education, it must have had an influence. Hence the subtext "back off, he's mine", disguised as propriety.

mrshouse · January 3, 2016 7:17 pm

When they finally will have realized that they function best together ( both), without secrets ( Sherlock), without striving for something beside not nearly as fulfilling (John), being exclusive for each other. At the falls it was a good beginning

besleybean · January 3, 2016 7:19 pm

Yeah well, we'll see.

nakahara · January 3, 2016 7:22 pm

besleybean wrote:
Because John pushes him over right after the 'elopement' scene.

For me, Moriarty and his role in TRF (which the waterfall is referencing) were what caused biggest rift in Johnlock (or alternatively, J+S friendship).
And it´s that rift that was kicked over the edge in this scene.

Last edited by nakahara (January 3, 2016 7:23 pm)

SusiGo · January 3, 2016 7:24 pm

Yes to nakahara, Lily, and mrshouse.

besleybean · January 3, 2016 7:24 pm

@nakahara Really?
I honestly don't know the meaning of that scene.
I did wonder if Moriarty is still controlling Sherlock, either dead or alive...
So he metaphorically has to be pushed over the cliff, to release Sherlock from his fears.

Last edited by besleybean (January 3, 2016 7:25 pm)

mrshouse · January 3, 2016 7:28 pm

But....
His fears are very closely related to his relationship to Jihn, in which way ever you want to see it.

besleybean · January 3, 2016 7:31 pm

In what way?
He's not afraid of John or for John...now.
All was resolved after Sherlock murdered, nay executed CAM.
He chose to pay the price of not seeing John again.
He's devastated by that, but there is no fear involved.
He and Mary kiss and John is officially handed over to her, with Sherlock's blessing.

mrshouse · January 3, 2016 7:37 pm

In what way?
You don't see that this show is about their relationship (we can consider it a friendship, that's not the main point), about changing through the influence of the significant other, of learning to deal with emotions, of getting a good man ( John also)?

Liberty · January 3, 2016 7:42 pm

This is probably more for the friendship thread, but one thing I see in the Falls scene is that Sherlock gives Watson/John a chance to save him, which was something he denied him in TRF. He made John watch him die, and left him with the guilt, grief and regret. I know this doesn't translate to their "real life" and John doesn't know about it, but I think it meant something to Sherlock. He sees John as a saviour - John even saves him right in the first episode. I love that moment when John appears to rescue him. (I just don't see Johnlock there - it's a different kind of love).

besleybean · January 3, 2016 7:42 pm

@ mrshouse Well most of that I can go along with...but I don't see any fears involved.
Sherlock was looking forward to coming back and continuing his life in Baker Street with John and them working together like before.
He was rudely awakened to the fact that this wasn't going to happen.
Once John got his head around the situation, he eventually stars working with Sherlock again.
Sherlock misses John, now he's married and moved out.
But I certainly think he'll be happy to at least be returning to that situation...rather than be facing death abroad and alone.

Last edited by besleybean (January 3, 2016 7:43 pm)

SusiGo · January 11, 2016 2:31 pm

Finally someone put in words what I have been trying to say for years:

http://dmellieon.tumblr.com/post/137088356228/tjlc

Liberty · January 11, 2016 3:30 pm

The trouble I have with that, is that I don't think that the only way for relationships to develop is to become sexual/romantic. There are relationships which will never be sexual, no matter how close, intense or central to the story (family members, for instance, but friendships too). If they want drama within the relationship, they can do it in various non-sexual ways - perceived betrayal, for instance. Something dramatic like Sherlock having to kill Mary, or failing to protect the baby would affect their relationship. (I'm not a storywriter - these are just wild ideas, but I'm sure Moftiss could come up with somethinb better).

I don't even feel canon Holmes/Watson really do move forward dramatically ... they carry on having adventures together, and their relationship is deep and enduring. I feel that what Moftiss have done is add drama to the events maybe, make them affect their relationship more (the reunion after the hiatus, having Mary shoot Sherlock, etc.).